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Inspired by this comment in Susan's Paulo thread.

Sure, the term "faggot" has become general use for someone who is an idiot. However, it is seen as "hurtful" and "offensive" due to the onslaught of bullying on gay individuals. This got me thinking, does the context of a word really matter anymore if it is possible that someone could be offended by its use?

Personally, I think restricting use of a word simply because of its "offensive meaning and/or origin" is foolish in its own right. Sure, the word can be offensive in its own right, but when attention is brought to its more offensive meaning or usage, it really doesn't help anything. All it does is draw attention to the negative connotations of the word. Now, I'm not saying that it's a good thing that "faggot" and "gay" are being used to describe something stupid or moronic, but hell, bastardization of a word's definition happens all the time. Hell, "Hip Hip Hooray" was a rallying cry for killing Jews and "picnic" was a term used to refer to the lynching of a black person.

And while I'm on the subject of offensive words, we might as well bring up the word "nigger", or "nigga'". It's a classic example of an offensive word because of the years of racial turmoil behind it. However, with the slang term "nigga'" popping up, there's been tons of confusion. There are people who believe that it is a word that should never be used, while some pieces of pop culture use it frequently (I for one blame that crazy rap music). This frustrates me because apparently you can only use the word if you are given "permission" by a black person. But why is it only okay for a black person to use it? Considering the history of the word, you'd think that it's use would eventually diminish.

Anyways, what do you guys think?

Black people think their entitled to it because they want to feel like they have something white people don't.

lol, silly black people.

USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST!

No what I should have said was, black people think they have the right to say it and not others because they think that will make us angry that they have something we (whites, asians, hispanics, mostly whites though) don't.

This post has been edited by ClosetLucy: 30 November 2010 - 02:39 AM

Victorian era. You'd get slapped for saying "fanny".

Victorian era. What does that have to do with anything.

Kaxbe, you raise a good point. I had no Idea about the origins of 'Hip Hip Hooray' and 'Picnic' . However, the original meaning of 'faggot' is far from dead. What got on my nerves was that alongside Susan's usage, (I'll believe she wasn't particularly thinking about gay people when she called Paulo a faggot) Jerk used it (repetitively) in line with it's original derogatory meaning: that Jerk hates Abbey because he is excessively effeminate.

Oh, I think it depends. The prevailing meaning should, in my opinion, be what remains in the dictionary (except when misunderstandings occur; bemused should never mean the same as amused, for instance) - of course, different meanings should also be mentioned there but the primary one should be the primary choice. Then the question remains, in the case that sparked this issue; is "homosexual" the main use for "faggot", or is it "cigarette", or is it just a generic derogatory term? I would, in this case, vouch for the second one and disregard the third, as all of them are very much in use and both 1 and 3 are derogatory. I would allow the first, under the clause that the third fell away (if I had the power to affect people's choices, which I obviously have not).

Of course, generally I dislike the fact that people seem to make demeaning terms out of all possible words. Honestly, I cannot speak with friends sometimes without them breaking out into laughter because one or two words can mean something wanton. ^_^

Jerk doesn't hate Abbey because he's effeminate. He's just using it as a way to insult Abbey. Jerk just hate's Abbey's attitude. s'no big deal dude, really. Words are just a glob of letters, they can't do anything unless YOU let them do something.

Ace, on 30 November 2010 - 02:51 AM, said:

Because we're talking about words and that is proof words and how they are interpreted change over time.

I... may have overreacted here. I concede the point, that once a word has been bastardized past a point, it no longer really is directly insulting gay people to use it. However, I'll still stick to more specific insults myself, just so I'm not misunderstood. ^_^


Edit: Argh, you're right! For consistency, I officially apologize to anyone born out of wedlock who is offended by this comment

This post has been edited by Quaddy: 30 November 2010 - 03:25 AM

Like "lame" meaning "crippled" and "moron" actually being a ranking on an IQ test. Words evolve all the time. Pretty soon "retard" and "faggot" will be incredibly common. It ultimately depends on usage, and most people who use these words on a regular basis don't give a damn what they're saying, so I think it's OK. It does speak volumes about our intelligence, though.

Scotch, on 30 November 2010 - 03:22 AM, said:

Something like this?

guy 1: Hey faggot, what's this?
guy 2: Oh it's my new bike! wanna ride?
guy 1: no thanks, I gotta meet my girlfriend. She is such a bitch, I love her.
guy 2: Oh yeah, I heard she was a real bitch, that's nice, bitch's are good types.
guy 1: well, see ya fag!
guy 2: Later retard!

ClosetLucy, on 30 November 2010 - 03:29 AM, said:

God i hope not. There are some words that should be kept as curse words i think. We cant have every curse word watered down into meaningless nonsense

Meh, intelligence is subjective anyway. They won't realize how stupid they sound in a thousand years.

Just because someone agrees with you, doesn't mean they're on the same side as you!

Me personally I use the term "gay" to describe something stupid, even though it's not the real definition. It's a sort of habbit actually, like I'll be annoyed by something and will say for example "This is pretty gay" it may not be the right thing to do but most people don't seem to mind. I should really try to amend that one of these days...

I rarely use the term faggot so I don't really have to worry about that one.

This post has been edited by Junior Boomer: 30 November 2010 - 11:19 AM

End of the day, context means everything. If your soft skinned enough to take offense in a word that has no hurtful intent behind it, you need to toughen up.

I find it refreshing that were actually losing some of the original intent of some hateful words. Not that we need the words avaliable specifically, but the fact that society in general doesn't care anymore about keeping a word sacred because were going to offend someone. The "gay" word usage specifically is great example. When i hear that in any conversation, i rarely gravitate towards the negative context of someone liking the opposite sex, but more towards a stupid phrase describing something.

The ministry of education makes a big deal about teachers using and letting their students use these words. A lot of students use "gay" to describe something they don't like, but honestly I don't have the effort to tell them off for it. Though when another student said someone else was being a Jew I did tell him off, so I guess I'm a hypocrit. meh.

Since we're talking about words changing meaning, how about words use to describe taboo things that inevitably end up being attached with a bad connotation? Like "cripple" sed to be the normal term for someone with a disability, then it was "disabled" and now even that is politically incorrect, some places insisting that you use "differently abled"
I guess that is the reason that "penis" and "vagina" are the words with the largest amount of synonyms, too.

Fun fact! Portuguese is the language with the highest amount of synonyms for the words "penis" and "vagina" in the world.

do words mean different things when used in different ways??? i dunno lets discuss it guys

If only you knew, Snooths...

Quote

Well, the problems with lines of thought like that is that they are unresolvable - all words will, ultimately, be rendered unusable. Besides, saying "differently abled" is just silly; everybody is (in some way) differently abled. Now, I am not complaining that new terms to denote the same thing is bad, not at all, because a richness of words is a gain (see: death, draw down the curtains, join the choir invisible, push up the daisies, gone away, resting, eternal sleep, be no more, and so on). However, when we constantly need to replace them, that not only makes it hard for us to keep track but also causes problems with the use of common words. It becomes far too arbitrary.

I am a hypocrite, I know. ^_^

Well, context and definition can go against each other in two ways. One in which the definition is vulgar, the other in which the context is vulgar.

For example, you guys already mentioned 'gay', 'nigger', etc. Those words are vulgar in their meaning, but when we use them, our intentions are not to bring other to attention the sexuality or race of somebody. And we know it, seeing as how some of my peers are offended by the language my friends often use.

The other way is when the context is vulgar. We all do this, guys. Fuck, shit, bitch. We use them to express ourselves very explicitly ("She is a fucking bitch": notice that the speaker leaves nothing to implication), yet if taken by their original meaning, we would sound like a bunch of 13-year-olds spewing discovering methods to appall grown ups (She is not unlike, in context of sexual intercourse, a female dog).

I think we're putting too much undue attention to this problem. Vulgar words today will eventually be replaced by other, similarly vulgar words. Even if you try to control for all the 'bad words' in the world, you won't solve anything, other than creating a demand for new cuss words. The problem is not the usage of the pejorative language, it's the society's perception of the people the words are referring to. I believe, in a truly ideal world, people of any race, any social status, any sexual orientation, etc would be able to laugh at racist, societal, sexual jokes. That is true tolerance.

So, if the society were to be truly tolerant, would we still need to discuss the need to restrain our usage of 'politically incorrect' words?

Quote

This is a very interesting point. I doubt a society like that would require to disallow, or at the very least discourage, words that we - today - regard as offensive. It is entirely true that tolerance requires acceptance of difference, and thus the ability to (as you say) laugh at jokes that cross the borders of today's political correctness. However, a tolerant society cannot be bred from an intolerant one - people need to offend every now and then, be it to complain or because they cannot keep it in. This is a sad, but true, fact, and people will also take offence at all of those words that are used to convey this hate or anger. In an utopian world, this would not be an issue in the first place, I think.

Ryan, on 30 November 2010 - 02:06 PM, said:

ILB, on 30 November 2010 - 02:22 PM, said:

Personally, I do not view tolerance and acceptance as the same thing. Tolerance doesn't mean that you accept it, it means that you mearly accept the fact that other people have different opinions, beliefs, etc... For example, I have an uncle who is anti-gay. He does not approve of them or accept them, however, he accepts the fact that there are gay people in the world. He doesn't have to approve of what they do, but he tolerates it because he knows that it's foolish to try to change people so drastically or convince them that what they believe or do is wrong. He mostly does this out of love, for his brother, who is gay, but that's besides the point. The point is that he's not accepting his brother's behaviour, he's tolerating it.

This brings me back to my original point about offensive words. If people just tolerated the use of the word when not used in a way that was meant to be offensive, things would be much better. I hear people say words that would/should be offensive to me, like "faggot", "chink", "sand-nigger", etc... However, I tolerate it because those words were not directed at me nor were they being used to insult someone else. If I brought attention to the fact that the word was used, all I'd be doing would be drawing attention to myself and that I am not as tolerant as I have lead myself and others to believe.

One of my best friends is gay. I'm allowed to call him a faggot as long as he's allowed to call me a cripple.

Don't worry, I'll be sure to censor my comments so that Quaddy's feelings aren't potentially hurt in the future.

woah SO YOU'RE SAYING that if i say bitch when describing a dog it means something DIFFERENT when i use it to describe a woman???? wow who knew

You misunderstand me, Gabriel; I agree with your view of tolerance. If another view was conveyed in my post, then I did not articulate myself clearly. ^_^

ILB, on 30 November 2010 - 03:53 PM, said:

Actually, I think I misunderstood you! Sorry!

I like to use "Homophobic" Instead of "Gay" Because it helps point out how ridiculus it is get angry over a word when someone is obviously not using it in the offensive way.

Like this entire discussion is so Homophobic.

That word has always confused me, because it would mean "fear of similarity". But I guess it is the same as with, for instance, perverted (which means exaggerated or large).

You're right ILB. Even if you'd strech the meaning to be frea of homosexuals, it'd still be the wrong meaning as it'd be "fear" as opposed to "hate" or "dislike" or whatever.

And i'd make a hateful joke, but i'll control myself

gayniggers from outer space

I am very far from a prescriptivist when it comes to anything language related. I can write grammer good when I want to, but I can also shift and change the way I construct sentences and use words in order to convey a meaning to whoever is reading my words.

Fluidity and freedom in word choice leads to clear, coherent and overall interesting ways of communicating with people. This is a part of that. Words like faggot, nigger, fuck or whatever all convey varying things and you can employ them to add punch to what you write. I try to.

The only offensive thing about using these words is when they are a symptom of poor vocabulary and a lack of linguistic inventiveness.

This topic isn't completely useless, though, as whf complains. Someone made a deal out of it in Susan's topic, and if you try using the word gay in the SA webcomics community, two seconds later you'll be covered in a pile of venomous crusading holier-than-thou morons. I am still kind of confused as to how such a crowd has such a cow over obvious jokes or alternate usages of words, but then again they are pretty terrible overall ha ha

SuitCase, on 30 November 2010 - 06:35 PM, said:

heh

SuitCase, on 30 November 2010 - 06:35 PM, said:

SuitCase, on 30 November 2010 - 06:35 PM, said:

sheezyart is the worst

Thank you, jerk! I really appreciate your support on this issue
Of course, I was too lazy to click that link you posted, but I'm sure it's helpful and relevant.

_{See? SEE? I can be sarcastic too! I'm so cool like that. This subscript brought to you by the Poes Law aversion commitee}


In conclusion

ITT Quaddy gets a bit irrationally angry, everyone else jumps him, he sees a different point of view, and then ClosetLucy presents a terrifying view of the future of the English Language (but still less scary than lolspeak)

This post has been edited by Quaddy: 30 November 2010 - 11:04 PM

Quaddy, on 30 November 2010 - 11:01 PM, said:

I didn't mean for this thread to attack you, bro.

ClosetLucy, on 30 November 2010 - 02:36 AM, said:

Right. Because all black people are stupid and think that using derogatory slang will make you angry, like children taunting "I have something you don't!"

Where on Earth did you get this idea? Have you ever seen a minority other than on TV in your life?

You act like addults don't do childish things all the time.

They do. But she didn't say "Adults". She said black people.
Saying adults are silly and saying a particular type of person is silly is sort of different, right?

I mean, saying that black people use that word to upset others would be sort of like saying gays are offended about others using the term 'faggot' because they want something to bitch about.

It's a complete generalization.

This thread is still extremely homophobic.

Tee hee~

Somehow, personalised definitions of words do lose strength when put out in newspapers and such. ^_^

Leaving_a_Comment, on 01 December 2010 - 12:59 AM, said:

You're using homophobic in place of gay, right?
Well when people call a thread gay, I generally post a picture of Sofia Vergara. But I'm not entirely sure what to post in a homophobic thread... Except maybe a picture of yaoi.

Things I have used the word "faggot" to replace:

- anyone who is high strung and has a miserable attitude (Abbey)
- anyone who is offended easily
- food objects ("Hey, would you pass me the faggot?")
- terms of endearment ("I love you, you stupid faggot.")

Quaddy, on 30 November 2010 - 11:01 PM, said:

Too bad, kid. You might've learned something.

Black people can say nigger/nigga' and white people can't. Black people can call white people a honky, cracker or chalky and white people can't retort with racial slurs. Mexicans can say wetback and spick but white people can't. Mexicans can call white people a honky, cracker or chalky and white people can't retort with racial slurs.

Repetition to drive a point. It is pretty hypocritical and backwards and I find it brings me laughter for hours on end. I can see the entitlement that black people feel they have, they went through a lot of crap and what better way to try and destroy a word as offensive as nigger and making it your own thing? What better way to reduce the hurt a word causes by turning it into a social greeting among black people? A black person is allowed to walk up to a white friend and say, "Whats up nigga'?" but white people are still not allowed to use it because when white people say it, it is racist. Yea, stuff like that makes me laugh because is dumb beyond reason. Its mind boggling, but in some sort of odd way it makes sense I guess.

Gay, fag and faggot are used so much because no one is afraid of gay people because they are perceived to be docile and non-confrontational. I hear it all the time while playing games, its like some sort of battle call, "DIE YOU FAGGOTS!". What makes this even better is that I have yet to meet someone who is gay who didn't use these words to talk crap to someone.

It is like this all falls under some kind of insane double standard that is not written down but exists in the minds of every human being whether they know it or not. This irrational fear of words that are perceived to be hurtful. I don't find any of this to be hurtful, they are petty words that have been mutated into some sort of gross over exaggeration of offensiveness which granted, probably would not happen if it was not screamed at them for years and years because of idiots who can not handle people being different. I don't find this kind of stuff offensive though, seriously, why would you call someone a nigger or a faggot when you can use a sentence and bring someone to tears if you know the right topics to hit? It is not nice to do either, but I just find that people being hurt by a single word is a little ridiculous and I find it very easy to shrug this kind of stuff off.

I guess in short, black people can use racial slurs pertaining to their color but white people can not. Mexicans can use racial slurs pertaining to their ethnicity but white people can not. Gay people can use derogatory slurs for their sexuality but every one can, no one cares except for fags.

Neff, on 01 December 2010 - 12:39 AM, said:

Hahaha! Look at you, your very smart! "Have you ever seen a minority other than on TV in your life?" haha! My town is 40% Mexican! I live in California! One of the most culturally diverse states in the country. All I can say is, your fucking retarded if you couldn't understand that my post was to be taken in jest. This is the internet, calm down and don't get so offended by a bunch of text.

Maybe /your/ racist? I bet you thought I was white for saying all that stuff. Well even if I am, that's still you generalizing me. People make generalizations it's just what happens. Ignore it and don't let it change your mood for the day or week or perhaps even longer. There are exceptions like "Hey you fuckin Nigger! I'm gonna lynch ya!" that's taking it to far and I feel a bit scared just posting that, you guys know I'm just trying to make a point right? But stuff like that isn't too common to say in public.

And if you must know how I really think of black people saying "nigga" and thinking it's 'their word' here's what I actually think: I don't fucking care, it's a stupid word, it's useless to me, and has no meaning anyway.

Now go away please

Technically, even if you're white, you can say whatever you want and if they find the person who subsequently shot you they will put him/her in jail. That is the beauty of freedom.

On that note, I never got why the N word is considered a term of endearment among many black people, but c'mon. White people have everything. Still, I don't really think that they are trying to keep it from us. In fact, in many places it is becoming more OK for white people to say it. I just think they are trying to suck the hate out of a hateful term. Or, as with faggot, they don't really care what they are saying.

God, I hate saying "they". We're all the same cells, anyway.

This post has been edited by Scotch: 01 December 2010 - 06:03 AM

That's because of wiggers.

and stop trying to save your own ass closet lucy.
He's not rasist.
The propper defence would have been something involving the fact that the only reason you used the group "black people" spesificaly was because the group had already been spesifyed to "people who can say n!g@e{"

Awww, fucking wiggers and chavs ruin EVERYTHING!

"stop trying to save your own ass ClosetLucy"

That's the most retarded thing I've ever heard, it's nothing short of saying "Stop defending yourself!"

This post has been edited by ClosetLucy: 01 December 2010 - 06:08 AM

No, wiggers are making it more ok to say the n word right now.

to be clear, the above argument was for the "nither of you are rasist" fund.

I meant it more like "stop going right to the stratagy of pushing your mistake on others and try to explane what you said in a way that would solve the problem for everyone."

Scotch, on 01 December 2010 - 05:55 AM, said:

They is totally racist


Honestly, there are words you can and cannot say in public regardless of what anyone feels. Words are just words though, so i never found it a big deal. I've said most of the colors of the rainbow but i rarely use them day to day. It doesn't really add anything to my life that i feel i desperately miss. If the worst restriction on my life is i can't say nigger out in public because I've been pre-conditioned to think that (A) society frowns on a person of my skin pigment saying the word and (B) I've been told that black people will beat me up randomly , then I think I can manage the next 60 or so years.

And to respond before it is asked, yes I am completely conditioned to be scared of using words in public, no matter how irrational that fear may be. And yes, it's totally racist in a roundabout sort of way, as I've met many people of many cultures who I know couldn't care less. However it doesn't bother me one bit to have these feelings, specifically within this frame of context. I'm not hurting anyone, and it's not going to effect anyone I ever deal with.

For ClosetLucy : A man wants to kill all black people, but never would act upon it because he knows it's wrong; yet tells his close family and friends how he feels. Should they consider him a racist. Yes or No

This post has been edited by Pants: 01 December 2010 - 06:18 AM

I know I'm not a racist. Thanks for believe me though.

However, I think we should look at what a racist really is. We all make generalizations at some point, so that in itself is not racism. It's when these generalizations are acted upon that someone deserves to be called a racist. At least that's how I look at it.

Pants: I think he's acting upon it by telling people, especially since what he's thinking is an extreme thought. I think I should chalk extremism with being a racist (dont be an idiot and say "lol what about people extremely in love with something?!" you know what kind of extremists I mean)

This post has been edited by ClosetLucy: 01 December 2010 - 06:21 AM

A man who loves all black people more than other people is a rasist.
A man who loves all white people more than other people is a rasist.
A man who loves all brown people more than other people is a rasist.
A man who hates all black people more than other people is a rasist.
A man who hates all white people more than other people is a rasist.
A man who hates all brown people more than other people is a rasist.
A man who loves all people is not a rasist.
A man who hates all people is not a rasist.


I think that there is a reason for sterio types
but I think that specific sterio types are cultural
and I think that reoccuring steriotypes like "all ***** people are lazy" or "all ***** are untrustworthy" happen becasue PEOPLE are sometimes lazy or untrustworthy and thinking that just one easily identifyable group is the cause or that all groups other than one is the easyest way to feal safe and/or good about yourself.

Damn, ya'll niggas is crazy, talkin' 'bout this racism stuff.

I'm pretty sure its impossible for someone to not be racist. Positive racism is still racism. Asian girls are super tight. That is a positive racist remark because its something that is desirable. When you finally bag that Asian girl and you think to yourself, "Man, she isn't as tight as I thought Asians were", you just had a racist thought, enjoy. When you date a black guy and see his dong and you think, "Its really true what they say about black guys", you just had a racist thought, enjoy. When you do a Mexican girl without a condom and think that just from your dong being in her that she will spontaneously become pregnant, you just had a racist though. Yea, you can call them stereotypes, but its the same thing as saying black people love watermelon, its a stereotype and its racist.

I find it a little hard to define racism, I guess its a like or dislike of generalizations made about a race. You either hate them for these reasons or you like them for these reasons. It can probably be a more in depth personal definition but I've never been good at this sort of thing.

navi, on 01 December 2010 - 06:33 AM, said:

Ha, I was basically saying the same thing, you beat me by 2 minutes.