Bittersweet Candy Bowl Forums

Alright guys, here's the situation:
The only way my dad will let me have a computer is if I build it. Not sure why. Long story short: I'm going to be building a computer. How does one go about building a PC from scratch?

In order to build a computer from scratch, you must first invent the universe.

Oh meowth, you silly thing, you.

What are quick and painless ways to build a computer?

secret of the universe

You should use the power of YouTube and find a set up video or something.

IDK. =D

I'd start off by finding a good motherboard.

Ask yourself what this PC is going to be for. General stuff? Gaming rig? It'll help you determine what you need. Like, say, a high-end processor, a dedicated graphics card, extra disk space. I went with 1 TB just because I need more than a hundred GBs to hold my music collection, but opted for a good processor and dedicated graphics card so I could play new games on it if I wanted. I cannibalized the monitor and saved a shitload.

Building a PC is a very grueling task (I used to love to take apart computers and look at the insides, but put them back together and always miss a screw or two.) And, It also costs a lot more. If he's thinking about it because of a money problem, tell him that buying parts and everything would be alot more.

Anyway, With that said, Good luck on your adventure of putting it together!

crossedeyefreak, on 30 August 2011 - 12:04 AM, said:

Does it really cost a lot more? I thought it was about the same price for a better overall result.

No, it is far cheaper to buy them already made.

Yes, Meowth is right.
Let's say (as Jerk said) you wanted a gaming pc.

Well, most of the parts will cost a LOT of money if you want a very, very, very good pc.

And how exactly do you know how to build it?

So yes, just buy one.

This post has been edited by asdf: 30 August 2011 - 02:48 AM

Tell your dad to get real and buy a top-tier store-bought PC. If you want a gaming PC then you can go buy a fancy video card if you aren't satisfied with the one that was stocked with the computer.

What they said. If you want a general-purpose computer, then just buy one. It will save you time/money/trouble, and you won't have to worry about accidentally wrecking an expensive part.

Step 1: Build an abacus. Yes, an abacus is a type of computer.
Step 2: Use the money saved to buy a pre-built computer.
Step 3: ????
Step 4: Profit

www.apple.com/store

it allows you to build a computer with either magic trackpad or magic mouse, or with 8gb ram instead of 4gb

Depends on what you want your computer for, like the above posters said. I'll give you a quick ref on what to look around for. If you want a gaming pc, you should look at the GPU first. Else, I assume it would be safe to start from a CPU/Motherboard combo if you are on a budget.

Gaming: (Marked with * are the essential parts to make the computer work)

*GPU - Just look around freely, and find one that satisfies your needs. The Radeon HD 5770 has a good price for the performance it gives. Same for the HD 6770, but is slightly more expensive. It runs DiRT3 on Ultra settings averaging about 35 FPS on my computer.

*CPU - Decide on a CPU. I suggest future proofing a bit on these. Try going for a cheaper i7 or the high end i5's. If you're on a budget, AMD Phenom II also performs quite well, but expect to have somewhat higher temperatures.

*Motherboard - Once you have decided on a GPU and CPU, look for the CPU socket your CPU uses, and make sure whatever Motherboard you pick has that slot. Motherboards are also separated by the CPU brand, so if you picked an Intel CPU, search for Intel Motherboards; same goes for AMD. Once you have refined your search a bit, now you have to look at whatever slot your GPU uses, and make sure your Motherboard also has that one. GPU's are usually PCI Express 2.0 x16. PCI Express 2.1 x16 are compatible with PCI Express 2.0 slots, just so you know. Also, take into account other slots or ports you might want in it, and if there is enough space to hold the GPU (The HD 6770 I have takes up the space of 2 slots!).

*RAM - Another thing you have to check on your Motherboard, is the memory standard it supports. The most common nowadays is DDR3, and most Motherboards nowadays support that one. However, you also have to pay attention to the memory speed (DDR3 1333, for example). On the Motherboard specifications, it should tell you the speeds it supports, like DDR3 1333, 1600. That means you need to pick RAM with speeds 1333 or 1600. DO NOT MIX AND MATCH RAM SPEEDS. I've read it's harmful to mix and match different kinds of RAM, so if you're unsure, just make all the RAM you install the exact same one.

*HDD - You need something to store all your files and stuff. I don't usually pay much attention to this part, but it helps to know that there are data interfaces. It's usually SATA, so make sure you have enough SATA slots on your Motherboard as well. Older ones usually use IDE, which most Motherboards should also have.

Disc drives - Read HDD. Pay attention to the write/read speeds, if you're interested in that too.

Sound card - Motherboards usually include these. Skip unless you're a professional musician or an audiophile.

*PSU - This will power your entire system. For a quick guideline on how to pick one, look up the energy requirements for your GPU, and add 100W to it just to be on the safe side. Also pay attention to what connectors it has, you know... those HDD's and Disc drives also need powering. If you see it doesn't have enough connectors, you can just buy adapters and extensions.

Case - And now to put everything on a pretty case. Look around for your Motherboard's form factor (usually ATX), and browse for a matching Case. Take also into account the dimensions of your HDD's, disc drives and your GPU, making sure it has enough space to fit all of those. Some GPU's are gigantic, making the whole system not fit inside the case. Cases usually include extra USB ports and other neat stuff. Just browse around and pick something you like and fits your system.

Monitor - Not much problem here, get a monitor that fits your needs. See which Video outputs your GPU has and buy a monitor that has that same one. I suggest getting one with 1920 x 1080 native resolution at least.

Keyboard, Mouse and other accesories - Blah. Shop to your heart's content.

***********

Once you have everything, just read the manuals and put the puzzle together. Good luck man!

EDIT: Or if you have money laying around, go with SuitCase's solution and just go Mac. I've heard they are pretty good, and you also avoid a lot of potential trouble. Building your own computer is a fulfilling experience though, I enjoyed it. Will consider getting a Mac when I get more money though, someday.

This post has been edited by ZoeStellan: 30 August 2011 - 06:09 AM

I built a computer once. I'd still recommend it if it's very important that you play video games at high performance levels.

But I disagree with the entire idea of people being that into playing video games. Buy an iMac. They are wonderful computers, will last longer and be worth more down the track, have better displays than just about anything you can buy separately, and come with graphics good enough for basically any game you'd want to play.

If you've ever taken a computer apart or installed a new HDD, Graphics card or if you're real old school, a CD drive, then you've got the skills you need. On council clean-up days people put out trash that is too big to fit into the regular bins (couches, etc). I managed to scrounge around and pick up 3 broken computers, which I conglomerated to make 1 operational computer. True story.
Mind you it was a 1990's era computer and it was during 2004.

What's going to be the main role of this computer? High/medium end gaming? Office? Student? Multimedia?

What are your requirements? OS?

What's your Budget like?

This post has been edited by LackLuster: 30 August 2011 - 06:44 AM

If your dad won't buy a computer for you i doubt he would want to get off his ass and go to the shop to fork out money for the computer parts.

This post has been edited by Supah: 30 August 2011 - 06:52 AM

I'd like to add to my post that it required much mucking around with drivers, software, etc, since bits of it wouldn't work with other bits (PowerPC and Intel, for example). Nowadays any hardware you buy is much more modular, meaning that it is simpler.

Is Johnny Hurricane still here?

a lot of stuff was already said. first you should think about what you want to do with your PC so you can get the according parts.

i strongly recommend that you get someone who knows his way around hardware to chose your parts, or you'll end up with hundreds of dollars wasted on parts that are not compatible.

the actual assembling isn't that hard to do, everything you have to know is written in the manuals of the parts, one word of advice: you should always have some skin touching the case (and best a radiator too) so you're grounded and don't damage your parts by static discharge.

as to pre-assembled rigs: meh~ mostly there are one or more parts that don't fit my needs, so i stay clear of them.

(Some shops will assemble the rig for you ... for a price)

hire a guy to do it for you

That's what I did, ChewySmokey! While I do have the technical ability to build a computer, I'd rather not waste the time shopping around for parts and looking up specs, when I could just deal with a reputable company that has a lot of experience with this stuff.

Granted, custom-ordered computers are more expensive than your average Dell, because you pay for labour/customization/quality parts. And in my case, I was looking 7 years down the road (because I have this odd belief that computers should damn well last 7 years if built right.)

Having built more than my fair share of computers, let me advise you on how to do it properly. I'm assuming you'll be gaming, FYI.

*For the video card, I recommend no less than a Radeon 6790 or GTS 550 Ti. Keep in mind that 6770 is a rebadged 5770 with updated firmware, and they're getting pretty close to low end these days.

Simply put, if you're looking into a Radeon Card, get a 6790 from one of the following (best to worst): XFX, Sapphire, Asus, MSI
If Physx is important to you, get a GTS 550 Ti from Evga or MSI. I honestly reccomend getting a 6870/GTX 560 if you can afford it, or better, a 6950/GTX 560 Ti.

*For the CPU, look into an i3 Sandy Bridge (2300 I think) or a Phenom II 955. Both will trade blows and support any single card rig just fine. DO NOT go with an i7 CPU unless you have insane graphics power. It's a waste. GPU > CPU for gaming. As for the phenoms having higher temperatures, no... Intel processors are known to be insane heat mongers. Still, both will work fine on stock cooling.

*For RAM, look into 8GB. As long as the specs and voltages are right, different modules play fine with each other. DO NOT however, get anything higher than a 1.5 volt RAM stick for Intel processors. A 1.65 volt will work but it's borderline; anything a tiny smidgen higher will FRY YOUR CPU.

*For hard drives, the Samsung Spinpoint 3/4 or the Western Digital Caviar Black. 500GB is a good compromise, and you'll run your system fine on a 320GB, just with less room for games.

*Motherboard: Stick with Gigabyte, Asus and MSI. DFI used to be very good, but they don't seem to be around in the PC segment anymore.
Note: AMD boards have a lot more features for less money. Intel boards tend to cost a lot more, but Intel processors are much better. Unless you're overclocking, which you should avoid on your first PC, this won't really make a difference, except you can get more quality Full ATX boards for less than 100 dollars with AMD than Intel. If you decide to go AMD, get something from the 9xx series chipset (socket AM3+), since it will support current AMD processors and the near-future Bulldozer chip. Intel tends to change sockets much more frequently than AMD, and unlike AMD, they are not compatible with processors from other sockets.

*Power supplies: IMPORTANT. DO NOT CHEAP OUT HERE. Stick with the 500 - 650 watt models in the following lines, unless you're running multiple Video cards or processors (not recommended for a first time build, as they're a pain in the ass):

Corsair TX or AX series
Seasonic S12II, M12II or X series
Antec High Current Gamer (520 watt or 620 watt)
DO NOT CHEAP OUT ON THE POWER SUPPLY. You could lose all of your components this way, or even set your house on fire.

For one video card and one processor, anything over 650 watts is overkill and you will waste energy. Anything less than 450 watts is cutting it close on higher end video cards. I recommend the Seasonic S12II or the Antec High Current Gamer, both 520 watt, for any single card setup with anything up to the Radeon 6950 (overclocked). Remember, wattage isn't actually all that important; what's important is AMPS on the 12 volt rail. For a good gaming system, at least 40 amps is recommended.

(Note: don't fall for multirail vs single rail BS. Multirail is better for high end systems using more than 800 watts, while single rail is preferred for smaller power supplies. Also, the S12II/M12II are often shown as dual rail, but they're single--just an FYI).

*For the case, the Antec 300, Rosewill Challenger, and Coolermaster HAF912 are good starting points. They offer good cooling for less than 60 USD and will accept both mATX and ATX form factors.

*For the monitor, I suggest at least 1600 x 900 and at most 1920 x 1200. If you can afford it, go IPS. They're extremely expensive, but very accurate color-wise, which is preferred if you are an artist (note: IPS panels are readily available on the end-user market from Asus, Samsung, LG, etc, and they're what Macs use.) I highly recommend the Asus VH236H; it's a TN panel, but fairly accurate as far a TN panels go, but it's less than 200 dollars and an INSANELY GOOD monitor for the price.

As far as all the comments on macs being superior, BUFFALO BAGELS. Macs are insecure software-wise and insanely simple to hack into, they are just as prone to malware as any other OS, and are locked down hardware-wise, using cheap, flimsy parts just like every other manufactured computer. They're fine if you're a die-hard mac fan or doing primarily creative stuff, but gaming or general computing? Please. They are no better than the average PC at general computing, and if you're gaming, Windows is the best platform. Look into a 64 bit OS either way, and I highly recommend checking out OEM Windows 7 Home Premium.

Anyway, your best bet is to come up with a budget, and go to a website like overclock.net or eggxpert.com and ask them to tweak it for you. This isn't the best place to ask, since most of the people here have never built a computer.

This post has been edited by Carcharocles: 30 August 2011 - 04:51 PM

Honestly, I can tell you what you do and don't need to do, I can tell you the exact parts. I do it for a living. But honestly aside from nitpicking, it won't be any better then most people above this post said.

Your going to dance with a good hundred or so parts, varying prices and so forth. It takes time when learning from scratch. Especially after you buy stuff, you need to learn to maintain it.

Read this first - > Best Of Tom’s Hardware: How To Build A PC - Part 1: Component Selection

If you can understand this guide, then you can build your own PC. If it's far too daunting (It's a very basic beginners guide, and a yearish out of date), then don't bother building a pc yourself.

If you think you want to proceed, some very tame price points -> System Builder Marathon, June 2011: Value Compared - Is Newer Better?

Tom's again, is a very basic site, but a great place to start if you have no other basis point of knowledge. Then you can proceed to some of the more advanced tweaking of your system once it's running (SSD and win7, OC'ing , BullShit drivers and so forth).

This post has been edited by Pants: 31 August 2011 - 03:09 AM

I'm pretty sure Johnny Hurricane isn't reading this anymore.

I'm pretty sure his dad be trollin

This post has been edited by Supah: 31 August 2011 - 03:31 AM

Best solution: Mineral-oil-cooled Fish-tank Extreme PC

I'm pretty sure troll-dad was a troll made up by dads to make their/your own dads seem better.
Troll-ception.

Carcharocles, on 30 August 2011 - 04:36 PM, said:

I've never in my life seen a Mac "hacked into". Nor a Windows computer. Who cares about a nonexistent problem?

Carcharocles, on 30 August 2011 - 04:36 PM, said:

I've never in my life seen a Mac get malware. Who cares about a nonexistent problem?

Carcharocles, on 30 August 2011 - 04:36 PM, said:

Agreed, but so what? Everything's made in third world sweatshops now, including the stuff on your spec list.

Carcharocles, on 30 August 2011 - 04:36 PM, said:

Why are they better at creative stuff, and not general computing? Because last I checked, only the Mac had the best Twitter client, and the best email application in the world, and the most usable productivity suite, and the best RSS reader, and the best IRC client, and the best FTP client, and the best HTML editor, and the best text editor, and the best native MySQL app, and the best launcher apps, and the best...

Oh, sorry. You have the non-Blizzard non-Valve non-otherwise-ported video games. That I can run anyway if I just reboot into Windows. What a shame that I have a Mac.

SuitCase, on 31 August 2011 - 04:29 AM, said:

Twitter itself, mutt, can't top that, in-browser RSS, irssi, ftp, vim, vim, mysql, AWN

Coming from a person who has used both Windows and PC, I can't pick a bad thing about Macs, they are quality products. Apple is easily going to dominate Microsoft, but is that superiority, or suppression? I can't easily compare Apple products against others, when Apple is elitist and superior marketers.

SuitCase, on 31 August 2011 - 04:29 AM, said:

Why would you even want to do this?

Carcharocles, on 30 August 2011 - 04:36 PM, said:

No, cloud gaming is.

Also, if you haven't heard it, Steve Jobs is no longer the CEO of Apple.

This post has been edited by skmojo: 31 August 2011 - 08:25 AM

SuitCase, on 31 August 2011 - 04:29 AM, said:

Malware known to infect Macs. Not nearly as insane as the software for Windows, but then again, Windows has about a 90% market share. Also, most "known" malware for Windows is variations of an existing malware, so the real numbers aren't as large as some would think.

Quote

Yes, but the stuff on my spec list isn't made with cheap ass Chinese capacitors with the unholy habit of blowing after a couple years, months or even weeks (Gigabyte uses solid state Japanese capacitors). Also, every single PC manufacturer uses cheap, unreliable power supplies that are less than 80% efficient and prone to dramatically going out in a fizzle of sparks, and taking your entire PC with it. the Seasonic based power supplies (High Current Gamer, S12/M12, Seasonic X, Corsair AX) as well as the CWT-based Corsair TX power supplies on my list are very well known to be rock solid stable, with newer models having up to 87% efficiency (AX Seasonic-X, being 80+ Gold, have even higher efficiency) and IF they go, which they very likely won't unless you abuse the hell out of them, the rest of your computer will work just fine.

skmojo, on 31 August 2011 - 08:23 AM, said:

Cloud gaming isn't a platform, dumbass. It just means you can access your games, save files and achievements from anywhere. You can use cloud on anything that has an internet connection, provided it is compatible with the hardware.

Also, I'll tell you exactly how much I care about Steve Jobs leaving Apple. It's how much I care that that one grain of rice in my Chicken Fried Rice is slightly crunchier than the rest--not a damn bit. And it really makes no difference about my opinions on Apple.

This post has been edited by Carcharocles: 31 August 2011 - 11:02 AM

"90% market share". what.
"cheap ass Chinese capacitors". double what.
"Cloud gaming isn't a platform". triple what.
"I care that that one grain of rice in my Chicken Fried Rice is slightly crunchier than the rest".
Ladies and Gentlemen, we have a
NEW
WORLD
RECORD

Windows has a massive market share. 90% is probably pretty close in the home computer market.

Capacitors that are poorly made have a tendency to not work as you'd expect. That relates to the poor PSUs. (I'm pretty certain Apple's PSUs are pretty solid, though)

Cloud gaming, well, depends on your definition. If you mean connecting to a server actually running your game, you're most likely running on Windows anyway. Elaborate on what you mean by "Cloud gaming".

He was pointing out he doesn't care about Steve Jobs leaving Apple.

Gentlemen, we have an idiot.

This post has been edited by esalaka: 31 August 2011 - 04:37 PM

esalaka, on 31 August 2011 - 04:37 PM, said:

I was going to put it a bit less...bluntly...but that works I guess.

esalaka, on 31 August 2011 - 04:37 PM, said:

I was estimating, but I believe the number is actually closer to 87, 88%. Most of the rest is Apple, with numerous Linux taking up around 1% or so.

Get into the server field and you'll find Linux is about as dominant there as Windows is in desktops/laptops. When dealing with supercomputers, you're pretty much almost never going to run into anything other than Linux.

Where Macs are dominant is with the creative crowd, because their stock software for creativity is beyond excellent, they have better creative programs than any other OS, and well, THEY USE, ALMOST EXCLUSIVELY, IPS which frankly is likely one of the biggest causes behind why they are so expensive compared to PC's (the other being profit).

Quote

They have a tendency to fail, to be exact. Blowing a capacitor often results in flames. And yes, it tends to happen with poor PSU's, which is why I said to never cheap out (as far as Apple's PSU quality, they seem to mostly follow standards that all manufacturers follow, and even if their PSU's are solid they're definitely not in the same league as the ones I listed).

Quote

I don't know why people assume my dislike for Apple is because of Jobs. It's not, and I HAVE defended him from haters. Nor is it the use of Foxconn as a manufacturer--as Suitcase said, Gigabyte is assembled by Foxconn, as are pretty much all end-user electronics products. No, all but one of my problems with Apple is a problem I share with ALL prebuilt computers--sacrificing quality parts for cheap outdated ones, locking down upgrade potential, and marking up the price well beyond triple what it cost them to build. My only specific problem that I have with Apple is their bullcrap marketing, which is only an extreme version of what all computer manufacturers are responsible for.

FYI, I currently own a 2nd generation iPod shuffle, and I will, by the end of the year, be getting a 4th gen shuffle. I have also considered getting an iPad (price and ties to a phone plan are the problems that stopped me). So my dislike for Apple is pretty much limited to their computers.

Please though, we've dwelled to long on the Mac subject; Johnny wants to build a computer, let's try to get back to the main topic.

I wasn't pointing out that stuff, I was trying to say that Carcharocles hatred for Apple (I readily presume) was so extreme that he was exaggerating things to a ridiculous level. So like, TY for calling me an idiot.

esalaka, on 31 August 2011 - 04:37 PM, said:

Steam is cloud storage. OnLive is cloud gaming. "most likely"? Sure it's likely, but that doesn't mean anything. It's comparable to only using a Philips TV with an PS3. Cloud gaming will run on any hardware, just like a PS3 will run with any TV.

Johnny's gone, threads always derail

This post has been edited by skmojo: 01 September 2011 - 06:15 AM

skmojo, on 01 September 2011 - 06:14 AM, said:

I'm fairly sure I meant that you are connecting to a server running Windows, ergo running Windows.

That said, Cloud gaming is an awful invention. Just another ploy to enforce the dumber aspects of IP (Ie. the fact the companies don't want us to actually own games we bought)

By IP you mean "Intellectual property", right? Just clarifying, since it always makes me think of vinyl LPs the way it is written.
k, guns are cool inventions though. Evil companies just wanna get the money they earned from making the game.
Running the game without local files means users don't need top-end (expensive) hardware. Also, since there are no local files to be DRM-protected, piracy is easier to control. Games can still be bought in retail stores for offline users. There aren't disadvantages about cloud gaming, so what makes it awful?
People bitched about crappy DRM, and so cloud gaming was invented as a compromise.

esalaka said:

Not just that but the whole Cloud Gaming business is essentially jumping on the hype of cloud computing. It's a buzz word that's hopefully set to die in 2013 at the latest.

Hopefully with Onlive since it is a horrible alternative to service.

skmojo, on 01 September 2011 - 09:57 AM, said:

Sorry, but do you do any research at all before you type things in?

There's been no actual study or report into the losses companies make with regard to piracy, with the point that it's impossible to conclude and track how much 'damage' it does to the industry. Companies make the most of their money when they send out their games in bulk to respective game stores. Companies don't go under due to piracy; they go under because of bad marketing.

There are plenty of disadvantages in regards to cloud computing and moreso in regards to Cloud Gaming. True, all the rendering is done from the company end, but that requires a lot of processing power, which they can supply but only in limited amounts. Their resources are finite and you can imagine if there are 500 or people in the region you're connected to using the service, things are not going to work so well. And I can't imagine it being cheap for the people renting it either.

It's just not a viable service.

There are other problems such as the monthly rental fee for the service in general. Games are 'rented'. Additionally the service is only viable for people who live in reasonable distance to the servers, if you live a fair distance away and cannot afford the internet throughput it just wont be worth it.

The other disadvantages are specific to consoles where games are entirely unmoddable.

Cloud computing was invented to jump onto the buzzword of cloud computing, not as an alternative to DRM, which is a horrible countermeasure to a non-issue.

---
It doesn't seem like Johnny is particularly interested in this thread anymore from the count of him responding to other threads.

This post has been edited by LackLuster: 01 September 2011 - 11:16 AM

Screw the OP

This post has been edited by Supah: 01 September 2011 - 11:23 AM

LackLuster, on 01 September 2011 - 11:11 AM, said:

Except the unreleased one that found that pirates actually are the most active buyers of games, films and music and are also more likely to go watch movies in a cinema than other people studied.

Quite obviously the full data was never released because it was a game or a record company that ordered the study. I'll post source if I can find it.

esalaka, on 01 September 2011 - 02:34 PM, said:

I meant in regards to the topic but yes that actually did happen.

I forgot who conducted that survey though, if you find it send me it in PM if this thread dies.

esalaka, what a shame to live on the command line! If you upgrade to a real OS, you will find people actually make native graphical apps for it!

Carcharocles, I said "I've never in my life seen a Mac get malware", and I mean it. Ask any Mac user. Just like security worries, they are nonexistent problems that never affect anyone, and so aren't worth mentioning. (This is not quite the case with Windows, especially if we expand malware to mean crapware, adware, spyware... nonexistent problems on the Mac.)

As for capacitor fetishism, I can tell you that none of my iMacs have ever failed in any way ever. Maybe it feels good to know that you have a Seasonic whatever in your computer. For me, I just trust that Apple chose the components that work right, and so far they have. (I will note that I think their laptops are as bad as anyone else's, but we're talking desktops here, and desktop Macs are super solid.)

Anyway, I think I basically owned you all by pointing out how there's all these great exclusive Mac-only apps that you cannot use. I think that even Carcharocles probably spends more times using his computer than reading the labels on his capacitors, so this is a more important issue and it is one where the Mac wins.

SuitCase, on 01 September 2011 - 08:02 PM, said:

Iunno, I prefer vim in a terminal for some reason. I can customize a terminal window much better than GVim so I prefer the generic version.

I actually rarely use mutt. But it's much faster than any other client or just opening a browser, and so I use it when I want to check my email quickly. (I'm using CDM so I can choose to quickly login to either LXDE or the command line, whichever I prefer at that moment. It's sometimes useful to drop onto the command line, run mutt and ttytter and then shutdown the comp after checking those if I'm in a hurry for a reason or another.)

And irssi, well, I like it for several reasons. Primarily, I can access it via ssh and secondarily because I've always found it a good IRC client. Simple to use and navigate.

SuitCase, on 01 September 2011 - 08:02 PM, said:

There's always that one program that succesfully managed to scam Mac users at some point - they weren't used to malware on their computers and it looked like a legit app. Generally, if you can manage writing decent malware for OSX, chances are your targets won't realize it's malware.

Fundamentally the problem is that so few people use Macs it's a waste of time to write malware for the platform.

SuitCase, on 01 September 2011 - 08:02 PM, said:

It's kinda amusing how you're the only person I've ever heard even mentioning all these great Mac-only apps. I don't mean I don't believe they exist, I just wonder why I've never seen anyone use them in an argument.

Maybe you like pretty apps that do lots of things. I like programs made with the UNIX mentality in mind, really. The "Greatness" and indeed to some neckbeards even usability is a matter of preference.

And I've just got to say the irrelevant opinion that vim has one of the best interfaces of a text editor I've ever seen. It's nothing to do with it being a command-line app, it's got to do with its dual-mode design.

Not to imply it's of any use to even talk to you because I know I cannot change your opinions one bit. This is mostly for the sake of answering your jab about the command line and I'm not expecting an answer. ^_^

LackLuster, on 01 September 2011 - 11:11 AM, said:

What? no! Companies don't need proof, they'll do it anyway. Prevention is better than the cure.
so they introduced DRM then blah blergh (you know the rest).

I wouldn't challenge an expert mutt or vim user at anything, but most people in the world will never get to figure those programs out and so GUI-based apps are generally "better". I should, however, note that Mac apps tend to have great (customisable) keyboard shortcut support, extensive interoperability and scriptability features, and can often be combined with command line functions quite easily. It's Apple flavoured and usability focused, but under the hood things are a lot more unixy than you think, both functionally and philosophically.

I don't disagree that malware has existed and there's a reason why it's not as common on windows and blah blah blah, but the fact remains that malware is a problem on Windows and not on the Mac, so it is a reason to switch to the Mac. I don't know why people think talking about why or how somehow changes reality to make Windows less shitty here.

esalaka, on 01 September 2011 - 08:41 PM, said:

My guess is that you never let them talk about it! When the arguments are so often about how Apple charges $59 for a mouse when I CAN GET ONE FROM LOGITECH FOR $8.50 THAT WORKS JUST AS WELL!!!!! arguments never really get to the real reason that a Mac is worth buying.

But it's true. There's a long and storied history to independent developers like Panic and Omni, and a whole raft of new companies and independent creators that have come around in the last few years of the Mac's resurgence.

It makes sense that developers of consumer-facing software would flock to the Mac, doesn't it? Mac owners have demonstrated a preference to pay money for a better experience, and so when marketing to Mac users, you can get away with charging $50 for a text editor or $20 for a DVD ripper whereas on Windows you'd be laughed at and ignored in favour of the closest freeware equivalent on download.com. (Or, in the case of Linux, screamed at and replaced with a technically competent but unusable GPL'ed alternative.) This difference is only getting more substantial with the advent of the Mac App Store, where thousands of developers are now taking advantage of this willingness to pay for quality native apps that work better than freeware or free web-based alternatives.

Also, it helps that the people best able to make elegant, usable apps are drawn to the most elegant, usable platform and are likely to code for it irrespective of the commercial incentives.