Bittersweet Candy Bowl Forums

I did, if you read my initial post. Learn to read.

If its gonna be miserable, kill it before it pops out. Until It pops outta there, I dont regard it as human.

alright after reading your post, which disturbed me slightly, my question is this. how could you view the baby as a collection of cells? it's alive isn't it? i will admit if the women was raped she should have the choice to abort but thats only because foster care system isn't that great. or so i've heard. i'm just glad my mom wasn't thinking "I can't wait till this collection of cells turns into a baby" or "i want to get rid of the baby" bet ur glad too.

Taeshi, on 08 November 2011 - 05:16 AM, said:

simmer down. i read it. k. and i'm sorry i didn't read it earlier.

This post has been edited by Meleeman: 08 November 2011 - 05:28 AM

TheMysteriousMan, on 08 November 2011 - 05:18 AM, said:

The reason this is such a hot topic is because you don't know if it will be miserable. Just because you are put up for adoption doesn't mean you are going to have a miserable life. I know a lot of adopted people, and they are just as fine as I am.

If you absolutely know it is going to be miserable... then I guess abortion is something to consider. Usually you dont know though. Its mostly "oh shit fucked up. not ready 2 parent. gunna get abortion now".

This post has been edited by Rex: 08 November 2011 - 05:34 AM

So, on the actual subject of the video, am I the only one who wonders how many of these people were paid actors?

I always found it funny that anti-abortion believers will form extremist groups that attack abortionists and bomb clinics that have anything to do with abortion, but I've never heard of them, say, setting up a program that sets you up with a background screened couple who cannot conceive, giving you the option of having the baby and giving it to someone who could take care of it if you so chose. I feel like that'd do a lot more good, it would keep some abortions from happening, and it wouldn't involve any new laws and regulations on the human body. Plus it circumvents an already overworked and understaffed childcare service, which I've seen first hand messes up just as many lives as it helps.

Anyway, I'm all for choice as long as it's before the second trimester. Either get it done as soon as you find out, when it's barely a thing, or have the baby. No reason to let it grow and almost make it and then kill it.

This post has been edited by Bourbon: 08 November 2011 - 05:43 AM

Meleeman: I view it as a collection of cells because.. it's a collection of cells? You honestly cannot argue against this. Humans don't become some magical unscientific being just because they're human.

And if my mother decided to abort me then I guess.. okay? I mean I wouldn't have been able to know about it or be aware of be conscious to make whatever decision, I really was just a part that invaded her, and it was nice that she was eager to have me, because it showed. She took great care of me and I'm happy she was at a state where she felt she was capable of having children. Arguing about hypotheticals is stupid.

i think now the solution to all our problems are fool proof contraceptives. then abortion wouldn't happen in the first place. course thats coming from me, i'm as conservative as they come.

This post has been edited by Meleeman: 08 November 2011 - 05:52 AM

fool-proof contraceptives are worthless in the hands of a fool.

and thats why we have sex ed!

Well the point is abortion shouldn't be something that you need to do, because it's painful and it can be emotionally-scarring and it's a difficult decision and it's also taboo amongst some people so you might get judged really badly on doing it. It's not pleasant, and I laugh at the mentality that people will be aborting all over the place if it was made legal. But what matters is that it should at least be an option, just like adoption and having the baby and those things, it should just be something you COULD do, you don't have to but you can at least be comfortable with the fact that if you really feel it's the right thing to do, you can do it. Without fear of judgement or abuse.

Smoking is legal.
Is aborting like smoking?

Can't really say for sure since I'm a guy but... I've heard girls suffer a lot when giving birth AND while carrying that baby inside them. It also brings tons of health problems and stuff.

On the other side... there's what Taeshi mentioned. The physical and emotional pain from getting an abortion is also something not to laugh at.

In the end, it's about letting the girl choose what kind of problems she wants to have. Life is all about choices, as long as they don't affect others (the thing previosly defined as a "lump of cells" doesn't count as 'others'). Getting offended over someone getting an abortion is ridiculous; it has nothing to do with you. If you don't like it then fine, don't do it, but don't take away choices from other people.

An analogy:

Rex, on 07 November 2011 - 10:01 PM, said:

Yes, the person having the baby is worth more than the lump of cells contained within. The former has more social links established, so many more people will mourn her death. On top of that, being a bit more utilitarian, the girl has also had a lot of money invested in her life; her death would signify sunken costs.

The death of the girl has a greater negative impact on the world than the death of a bunch of cells.

This post has been edited by ZoeStellan: 08 November 2011 - 07:02 AM

I am surprised at how many people said that they have changed their mind about abortion at the end if the video. It is just amazing how this guy went from making sense and sounding like a reasonable person to suddenly becoming some crazy preacher telling everyone they are going to hell. I am also wondering how many of them were lying when they said "I wouldn't drive the bulldozer, I will let them shoot me instead.", that really isn't something you could say unless you were in that situation.

The subject of over population was bought up earlier, just want to point out that in western civilizations native population isn't increasing all that much, in some the native population is actually decreasing. For example, in Australia couples on average have less than 2 children in their lifetimes, as well as this, not everyone finds a partner and has kids, the only reason population is not falling is due to migration from other countries. The main cause of overpopulation is from poorer countries where things like abortions, sexual protection, and women's rights are not common practice.

This post has been edited by matty_batty0: 08 November 2011 - 07:25 AM

In the wild mother bears eat their young if food is scarce. If the mother dies, the babies would die anyway, so at least that way the mother can live to breed again.
...I'm not sure what that means, it's not like people are eating dead babies.

skmojo, on 08 November 2011 - 07:32 AM, said:

Case in point: miscarriage caused by malnutrition.

skmojo, on 08 November 2011 - 07:32 AM, said:

Some Wolves do that too.

skmojo, on 08 November 2011 - 07:32 AM, said:

Lol no

Another point to be made:
Fetuses are little sacs of chemical reactions with no immediate use.
Humans are big sacs of chemical reactions with some immediate use, which are also more stable. They already exist as well, no incubation time until they are ready. they already are.
Now choose between the well-being of a fully-capable chemical sac and a tiny, pointless sac, usually not intended to be created, which will probably ruin not only its own future development but the future of the large, stable chemical sac as well.
Of course, this is all if we even care about either of the two.

Really, abortions are nobody else's business except the woman having it, the doctor administering it, and the father. I don't give a damn about it.



EDIT: Happy now, Chris?

This post has been edited by Dr. Klaus: 08 November 2011 - 06:31 PM

matty_batty0, on 08 November 2011 - 07:22 AM, said:

I'm sure that many people who said they would rather die than commit an act like that, would probably find themselves in the drivers cab. The survival instinct is very hard to get past, I suspect more people would be in the dozer to save themselves than take the bullet.

I think this is the same guy who was arguing a while ago that bananas were proof of intelligent design, so I can't really take anything he says seriously. It is a bit worrying though how he's seemingly able to change people's attitudes on such a shaky proposition. If these people had just stopped to think for a minute they would have realised how unfair hes being to them. It would be interesting to know if they were all legit members of the public, it also makes a difference where the interviews are being conducted etc...

As far as over population goes I seem to remember that the Earth could only support 1.5 Billion people if we all lived as North Americans, this sums up the problem quite well: How Many People Can Live on Planet Earth? | Watch Documentary Online

Klaus, man, take that down before Luigifan sees it

Meleeman, on 08 November 2011 - 05:06 AM, said:

I think it might be time for a fifty second trimester abortion here guys.


also klaus, that picture is really fucked up. I know you spoilered it but come on man, no one wants to see someone eating an infant, plus, if you spoiler it after a spoiler like the mc donnalds logo, people are going to assume it's not something like that. come on dude. you could have just said "no auctually people do eat infants" instead of posting an immage like that.

This post has been edited by Chris: 08 November 2011 - 05:58 PM

He just wanted you to know the McRib is back, Chris.

I am going to blow your minds: Jews getting abortions. It's so perfect I can't even.

HAHAHAHAHAHA JERK

i seriously cacked at your first sentence.

Also that picture Klaus posted is old and fake Chris, stop being such a freaken baby.

or i will eat you

snopes.com: Fetus Soup Eaten by Asians yup

Rex is not an idiot. The guy knew what he was talking about but ONLY what he was talking about. You really can’t blame a person for being unaware of a particular court case and related point of view. In this particular case, I can’t blame him in the slightest for his lack of understanding of the economic standpoint. He isn’t stupid and he may or may not be wrong, he was ignorant. Every time I talk about or hear about abortion, people are talking about baby killing and choice. There is always the bleeding heart point of view with a bloody baby carriage and an accusatory sign or some chick who thinks I personally wish to disrespect her rights. How to put this…. The sad and angry people need to shut the fuck up and get off of national television so that people can hear the logical/economic side of the debate. That will never happen to a degree that educates even the majority of people. However, Rexes argument applies to the economic side of it too. If you were stupid and got preggers, you would only be suffering from your own actions. However, that popular opinion is against personal responsibility. After all, in any situation in which you have caused yourself a problem, the logical first thing to do is attempt to solve it. Here is a solution to the idea that having a baby will economically ruin you that was put in place specifically for people who are unable to take care of their children. Give up the kid for adoption. I have yet to hear anyone give me a reason why a baby could not be given away for adoption under the condition that the baby is safely born.
But, that is only when the baby is safely born. The economic standpoint doesn’t count for jack shit until after the baby is already out and even then, the economically unfit parents don’t have to keep the kid. There is such a thing as maternity leave and that takes care of the downtime. Is it so much to ask that you deal with the orphanages paperwork and such so that meta-person can live?
So, saying that the abortion choice is not a moral issue is bogus. The economic issue is mute and no one has given me a reason otherwise as of yet. Before the kid is born, the mother has to go through the 9 months pregnancy and before that there is the night of conception. These are the only three things I think factor into this issue. Conception, creation, and care. Care has options. 95% of aborted babies were aborted as contraception rather than defense of one’s life length. Those 95% created a new being and then destroyed it simply because they couldn’t be bothered to put on a condom or give the kid up. The other 5%, on the other hand, who did everything in their power not to have a baby and then ended up with one anyway, are in an unfair situation and shouldn’t have to be bothered. For those 5%, the choice needs to exist. For the other 95%, the choice should be there but they shouldn’t use it. It’s called moderation. Humans are very bad at it. That is the real heart of the issue. Should the good people who are being victimized have to suffer because of all the people who will abuse the situation? I don’t know.
Then, there is creation. Pregnancy is an unpleasant 9 month ordeal that alters your body chemistry and then does a half ass job of putting everything back how it should be. This, I know. If you don’t like it, you should be given the freedom and right to not go through it. And you do have the freedom and right right up until you chose to do something that generally results in birth. I already said that I think people who have had this right taken away or who’s best efforts failed are probably exceptions. People who are likely to die should be able to get an abortion too, but only four or five times. At a certain point, you’re just suicidal and should get some help. I know it hurts and I know you become an emotional wreck. It’s traumatic too. But, you know what? I have been stuck on the floor, unable to move, simply wishing for the pain to go away for hours and trying my hardest not to flex my abdomen. So has my mother. According to a female, extreme cases of constipation hurt just as much as pregnancy. You know what? If it isn’t going to kill you and you did it to yourself, you can deal with it.
Also, aren’t sperm and eggs alive before they combine? If not murder, it is at least as bad as killing a dog.
While we are at it, Hitler was able to rise to power because Germany was in a horrid economic state and he promised that he could fix the economy by overthrowing the Jews. Are you saying that you would chose money over lives too?

NAZIS
Nazi zombies everywhere
I think have the baby and set them up for adoption.
If your raped, than im fine with abortion. Same with health issues and ect.
But everyone has their opinions... even if I think their wrong, that won't change anything.

But Hitler.
Ive never seen such an odd argument before :I

A fetus is the potential for human life. At one point, so were a semen-stained tube sock and a used tampon.

Holocaust victims were actual human lives that died screaming and weeping, by gas and gunshot, who were burned or buried, each one in the process of exploiting their greater potential as part of the human race.

Oh, I've aborted puppies before. It's pretty quick and painless as you watch the wriggling masses of puppies in the uterus slowly stop wriggling... slowly... slowly... and then nothing.

What is humanity?
What makes humans humans?
Is it biological, developmental, educational, philosophical?
Is it our connections and relationships with each other?
Is a single, isolated man or woman alive on their own or are we only alive as part of our communities?
Is it fair to kill "non-humans" for the benefit of a human?

Ranki, on 09 November 2011 - 02:46 AM, said:

I'm fine with it no matter the reason. I wouldn't advocate it, but it still isn't my business to make it illegal.

On the matter of making an activity that someone does illegal not being someones buisness; pot is not harmful physicaly. It is just moraly questionable behavior. I am still not saying that I think that abortion should be made illegal but I am saying that the rules that the rules that deside what is and what is not a government's buisness seem to be against law butting out.

Craft aids, on 08 November 2011 - 11:26 PM, said:

i like your conservative views, however i refuse to belive that my haploid cells are a potential human being, i kill my haploid cells whenever i feel like it especially when i'm depressed. don't forget there's also the expensive C-section to bring the baby into the world as well.

for us to come to a solution. find out when the baby is considered human. figure out a set of laws that would allow choice but limit the choosing power of the person. so as this would not trample on the rights of the person, and ensure the living fetus would have a fair chance.

Meleeman, why don't you use capitalization? I'm trying not to shitpost, but that is really bugging me.

This post has been edited by Rex: 09 November 2011 - 04:51 AM

Craft is back! You say that the 95% who use abortion as a replacement for contraception should have the choice, but shouldn't be using it. Does that mean that you are alright with 14 year old girls having babies and destroying their bodies? Just teenage pregnancy in general. Sure once a baby is had it can be put up for adoption, but is that really a good thing for the baby? Not only that but some mothers do not like to give up their child, motherly bonds are strong things and some people let it cloud their better judgement, causing them to keep the baby even if they initially didn't want it, this can really impede the future of a lot of parents, especially those in their youth, it all would have been avoided with an abortion.

And Kaxbe, people like talking about abortion, sorry about your thread.

This post has been edited by matty_batty0: 09 November 2011 - 05:36 AM

Craft aids, on 09 November 2011 - 04:28 AM, said:

Yeah, right! Pot mimics brain molecules and stop it from working properly. Excess exposure can cause permanent, untreatable damage. While it is far less harmful than heroin and cocaine, cannabis is MUCH more harmful than alcohol (in relative amounts), for example.

Eh, I know a fair few people who would argue otherwise. There is a lot of uncertainty about the actual long term effects, just check out the "long term effects" section of the Wikipedia page for the tip of the iceberg.

This post has been edited by matty_batty0: 09 November 2011 - 06:06 AM

While it certainly got my attention the title of this thread seems....a bit over the top....I prefer to compare pot to tobacco as opposed to smoking insofar as physical damage is concerned. Also hi Craft, it's been awhile.

I didn't watch the entire video, and I haven't read all the posts in this tread - so sorry if I'm repetitive!

I hate videos like these. Propaganda is biased and I feel that their purpose is to simply misinform the masses. If your strongly held beliefs can change SO EASILY, they probably weren't as strongly held as you thought they were.

In terms of abortion, I still consider it as a choice. I wouldn't personally have one, but I'm not gonna prevent people from having that choice. It definitely should not be taken lightly, though. A lot of people receive a lot of counseling. Abortions shouldn't be treated as a form of birth control. It's a very serious procedure. On a slightly different topic, there was an article I read earlier today about how anti-abortion people are going so far as to attempt to make all forms of birth control (the pill, IUD's, and even emergency contraceptives like Plan B) ILLEGAL. What the shit, okay, if you're against abortion, that's fine, but I find it ridiculous that people want to even get involved with other's SEX LIVES. Ridiculous. To what extent are we going to allow others to be involved with OUR bodies?

Also, making abortion illegal isn't going to stop abortions. Prohibition didn't stop people from drinking alcohol. I'm not comparing the two, I'm just saying that if you legally take away that "right" it isn't necessarily going to stop the problem. Might as well have a place where it can be done under the safest conditions as possible. If I felt THAT strongly AGAINST abortion, I would personally go out and try to educate as many people as I can about it and to teach proper sex education to prevent unwanted pregnancies. Many people simply don't have access to such knowledge/education.

Migrant, on 09 November 2011 - 05:50 AM, said:

I'm not sure why THIS is here in an Abortion thread but I'll throw 2 cents at it anyway.

Marijuana deals less damage to the body than alcohol, and the effects are somewhat the same, and arguably even less DAMAGE than regular smoking, albeit the difference in "highs".

The reason that marijuana was outlawed is because Hemp was viewed as a resources that could relatively replace the timber industry, and a couple of other things like cloth and fabric, and with the billions of dollars that the corporations of timber were going to lose some of them had to do something. So they launched the War Against Marijuana.

Without adequate support from large companies Reagan will have a hard time winning the elections so when timber companies came to propose their ideas Reagan agreed. Marijuana's "bad" anyway right?

Wrong, if Canada were to use hemp nowadays it would put a SIGNIFICANT dent in the disappearing of forests and vegetation in the world.

...there you go.

(I'm going off this from the top of my head here, some of the things may be wrong. Someone correct me if I am.)

Ooookay, so.

I was scrolling down seeing everyone pretty much tear rex apart, calling him an uneducated idiot tool. I don't spend a lot of time on this community but it appears that people's views clash very violently here, like I guess they do in real life less severly. Firstly, aborting a baby is, in my opinion, wrong. Let's just get out of the way that I'm prolife here so people can rip me up too if they want. Secondly, abortion does cause psychological as well as physical problems, probably worse that carrying the baby itself. As an example, many people feel horrible or suicidal after an abortion. There is a large possibility that something could go wrong and that you'll have a baby's leg floating around in your womb. There are very large risks involved with abortion. That being said I do respect other people's opinions although I just can't look at a potential human being like an inanimate object to be wrapped up and thrown away like trash. I feel strongly about human life, and overpopulation is not an excuse for this. Saying that the baby could grow up to be a criminal isn't valid either, because you don't know if that will happen! A baby can be the best thing that ever happened to you, or it could destroy your life. But either way, you need to take responsibility for your actions. Those are my views, please don't hate me for this post.

This post has been edited by headacher: 09 November 2011 - 04:48 PM

If you didn't wanna call us murderers for being pro-abortion then why did you bring up the Mother Teresa quote in the first place?

"You're a scumbag, but I'm not saying you're a scumbag! It's just that I feel differently!"

Anyway whatever needed to be said has already been said, and you're not really bringing anything new to the table that can be rebutted.


I'll take that as a comment.

Taeshi, on 09 November 2011 - 04:06 PM, said:

I just wanted to bring up her quote but clarify that's not how extremely I felt about it. I'm obviously not Mother Teresa, but I was saying I thought that I agreed with her, except with that the "murderer" part was a bit extreme. I'm not trying to make any enemies here, and I'm not calling you a scumbag.

Taeshi, on 09 November 2011 - 04:06 PM, said:

I was just giving my thoughts on it from my point of view as a 14 year old

Taeshi, on 09 November 2011 - 04:06 PM, said:

What?

This post has been edited by headacher: 09 November 2011 - 04:13 PM

I'm just saying if you're going to use a quote you don't fully agree with, then don't use it. Because the basic gist of that quote was labelling those that support abortion as murderers, and that they "avoid responsibility." You could have made your point better without using the quote.

Taeshi, on 09 November 2011 - 04:10 PM, said:

Fair enough, but I did clarify that I didn't fully agree with the quote and I thought it was fitting, except for the murder part. Rather than paraphrase I just put the full quote in and explained how my opinion differed from hers in that I didn't think abortion was murder, jut that I was against it . It's just a quote after all, no need to be arguing over it . BTW, huge fan of bcb, forgot I was talking to THE taeshi for a second. I made this account specifically for the above post.

the amount of repeating i have to do is giving me a headacher

|: (

I was hoping we could've just dropped it at that.

It feels like I'm being ripped apart by a celebrity.

"Oh, hey Jackie Chan, how's it going? I'm prolife!"
Jackie Chan: "Screw off then, kid!"

This post has been edited by headacher: 09 November 2011 - 04:32 PM

Oh that taeshi

That's really not how it happened, you used a clearly demonising quote about pro-choicers and then backpedaled by going "I don't mean ALL of it, so it's okay!" even though taking a part of the quote destroys the entire context.

As I said before and before and before, don't use quotes you partially agree with.

Okay, fine. Would you rather I remove it?

There, quote removed, can we all be friends now? This whole thing we're talking about isn't about abortion, it's about a the proper usage of quotes. You think quotes shouldn't be used at all if they're not 100% agreed with, I see no reason not to use a quote, provided you give an explanation of what you think instead of paraphrasing. But to end this conversation seeing as I'm not going to keep replying since I need to catch a plane to France in a few hours, I removed the quote so everything is good and so that it's all good. So are we fine now? I still disagree that quotes shouldn't be used at all if you don't completely agree with it though. This conversation is going in circles though.

This post has been edited by headacher: 09 November 2011 - 04:48 PM

The first 3 minutes of this is quite a good response to 180

When my mom first got pregnant she had an abortion, She didn't do it because she wasn't ready. She did it because she had lymes disease and back in the 1980's they were still doing research on the virus and it's effects on infants. Eventually she found that it would'nt be passed on to a baby and she had me my two sisters and my brother. So in my opinion a woman should have a choice that is associated with a reason. I don't think my parents would'nt have had that many children if my mom had kept the baby and I might not even be here.

ALSO

What about when a man masturbates? or a woman has a period?, if someone really advocated for human life, then would'nt you argue that technically these people are killing would be babies?

Or what if a woman is raped? should she be made to suffer through a pregnancy she didn't even agree with?

For all of this i agree with the law of the united states, that you have six months to decide.

IM PRO-LIFE as in im supporting a better life, one where a baby is born to parents that can adeptly take care of it, or one where it is wanted.