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It's not like I'm saying it's good that they were beaten in with such stupid barbaric traditions. You can't only hope to convince them out of it and let them know that they don't have to do it. But if they choose to, it is a shame and that's just another one of the many horrors of religion.

I have not contradicted myself, I think getting various piercings and tattoos are dumb as hell, but if the person has chosen to do it and knows full-well what they're gonna do, then power to them. Though that's a lot less extreme that mutilating your genitals.

Religious traditions encouraging people and even convincing them to do stupid mutilation is bad. That happens where it's the norm. There's no contradiction there.

Keeping pointless religious traditions of mutilating themselves because "it's religion" is wrong and encourages people to do bad things to themselves.

This post has been edited by Itu: 12 January 2012 - 05:17 PM

So would you say female circumcision is better because it gives the possibility of consent (at the risk of being alienated by your people), or worse because it's pushing a belief system on young girls that they must be mutilated to be wed and have a family, or it evens out to be the same for males and females?

Also, just throwing in to Taeshi that I wasn't implying she contradicted herself at all.

This post has been edited by Bourbon: 12 January 2012 - 05:23 PM

You're not talking about female and male circumcision there, you're talking about neonatal circumcision and adult circumcision.

The latter has a problem because religion made them take a stupid choice, but you're not going against anyone's immediate right, I guess. Unless it's frowned upon not to do it, then it's religion pushing itself and doing harm, and people going with it to create social pressure against the freedom of someone.

It's not really which one is worse, the point in question is that pointless religious traditions that consist in harm being done should not exist.

This post has been edited by Itu: 12 January 2012 - 05:27 PM

Well I'm not taking the religious aspect into account so much here. What I'm saying is, male circumcision nowadays is done mostly because it's tradition, NOT because they're Jewish. They do this in the neonatal stage, so the infant has no say. Female circumcision, while much more brutal, is left up to the girl. However, the 'norm' in that closed circuit is to have it done, and to say no risks alienation and abandonment. I wanted to know if you had an opinion one way or the other: Is a small surgery with no consent better/worse than a larger more painful surgery with consent?

The first one attacks the rights of someone who can't give or refuse consent.

The latter, worded like you just did, is not going against their right because they're giving consent, so worded like you just did the first would be worse.

The problem in adult circumcision where it's the norm arises when the person does not want to give consent. Then they push religion on them, and attack their freedom of choice with social pressure. I couldn't say wether this or the first one is worse.

This post has been edited by Itu: 12 January 2012 - 05:41 PM

They're both shitty and impractical and useless. I would say female circumcision is worse because it is actually debilitating, but that's not gonna suddenly make male circumcision okay to me.

@itu Thats assuming that the religion isn't true. Religion is absolutely a fact to most people, and thus they are far more then traditions. Its the way of pleasing their god.

This post has been edited by Rex: 12 January 2012 - 05:43 PM

We're not going this path again Rex. You can't impose what you think on others because you believe it's true.

Refer to previous examples on stoning heretics, branding infants with fiery metals and others made to illustrate the point.

This post has been edited by Itu: 12 January 2012 - 05:50 PM

Oh for Christ's sake, a cut vs uncut thread on HERE?

Want to be able to fap better? Don't get circumcised. It's like your own personal cock sleeve for all you foreveralones.

Want to last longer during any kind of sex? Might be harder if you still have your foreskin.

But whatever works man. I personally think cut looks better and cleaner than the sandworm. And think about it this way if you're not religious. On the off chance that God DOES exist, well at least you got your penis going for you lol. Better to be safe than sorry.

The prevalence exists but it doesnt really matter. These traditions will never cease to exist, so the argument is moot.

@Ven: You're ignoring the issue completely. We're not saying being circumcised is better than the altenative. We're arguing against prevalence of pointless religious traditions and the harm they do to people who don't necessarily want to accept it.

@Rex: What are you saying now? That somehow these traditions are okay because they will never cease to exist so every argument against them is moot, thus letting them to continue to exist forever?

I'm saying that I need to stop my end of the debate because people tend to start judging me as a whole for a few opposing views they have with me. Its a silly argument because neither side is going to give way, and any amount of arguing against circumcision isn't going to change anything as long as those religions that uphold it remain major world religions.

I really do understand your point, I do. These babies have no choice in the matter and its wrong to impose your beliefs onto somebody.

This post has been edited by Rex: 12 January 2012 - 06:15 PM

Today I learned that sleep is far more important then arguing with people on the internet.

No need to feel bad because of your views or to be afraid of being judged. I do not dislike people for opposing my views, in fact, I respect people who can hold rational opposing views against mine.

Well, the Royal Dutch Medical Association in Netherlands holds the position that non-therapeutic male circumcision conflicts with the child's right to autonomy and physical integrity, and suggests it should be outlawed as much as female genital mutilation (female circumcision) which is widely outlawed, and viewed as a barbaric criminal offense except in some places.

What I'm trying to say here is that it's important to argue against these kind of things because they restrict our freedom and the freedom of the people. Things like slavery and the inquisition have been pushed back because of people arguing against them and not plainly thinking "it's done by a major world power, there's no chance we can take it down". And it IS possible to do it.

This post has been edited by Itu: 12 January 2012 - 07:10 PM

Man, society has such strong interest in what people do with their reproductive parts. Though it makes sense here as the baby pretty much has no choice. While most guys I know don't regret their circumcision, I've read articles about people that have. The ideal situation here would be that males are given the opportunity to get a circumcision when they're old enough to decide.

I'm fairly neutral on the issue, and see it at as a personal choice. I can see both sides of the issue. It's no surprise that the decision has to be made sometime, though. Parents enforce a lot of things on their kids, like where they will live, what they will eat, where they will go to school, and maybe even beyond that. Those things I feel have more long lasting effects than circumcision. I'm obviously not a guy though so I can't say that with 100% conviction, only based on what my male friends (circumcised and uncircumcised) have said. From what I've seen, my male friends are pretty content with the way they are.

And religion? I think it's a very ethnocentric thing to criticize one's religion and culture. What we perceive is wrong and right is based on our society's culture values and beliefs. We only see certain practices as wrong because of our own perspective. If we were raised in a different society, OF COURSE we would believe otherwise. Some societies eat horses, dogs, cats, and various other animals. Some societies think we're disgusting for eating beef, pork, or seafood. So on and so forth. Does that mean I agree with what other cultures do in terms of genital mutilation or whatever ritual? Of course not. Some cultures go through great extremes for certain practices. Sometimes it's a rite of passage. I feel terrible for what people go through sometimes, but I know also it's not my place to tell them that what they're doing is wrong. Their practices have been done for ages, and are so deeply rooted that it would take such a long time to fight and change it. I think it's possible, though. But if you think it's the right thing to fight for, then go for it. We have the freedom to, but it of course comes with risks. There are many practices out there that I feel are worth fighting for, like those young girls that get forced into marriages at such a young age, and being practically raped just so they can have literally dozens of children. They live their lives totally bound to their husband, with no will of their own, even if they have greater ambitions like going to school or having a profession. That would be a discussion for another time.

If anyone is that strongly against circumcision, then they should do whatever it is in their power to fight it. There are already groups doing such things.

As far as I'm concerned, it all comes down to the fact that circumcision is almost always an unnecessary surgery, and for that reason it's not ethical to inflict it on young children unless there's a medical need for it. Many doctors agree with that principle.

Nor would I make any exception for religion. Over the last couple of centuries, humankind has made great progress in eliminating many harmful traditions around the globe, for example slavery, torture, foot binding, castration, sati, etc. Admittedly in some areas we still have a ways to go, but that doesn't mean we can't always strive to improve. For instance, it should never be needed or required to hurt others in the name of religion. These practices can be replaced with alternative, kinder ones. As an example, some Jewish people practice the brit shalom in place of the brit milah.

You make some really good points, wacko. Indeed, although difficult, I believe things can change with time. It's just a matter of how long it'll take before those types of procedures are truly recognized as something unnecessary. Until individuals are old enough to decide that they want to mutilate and change their bodies any way they want, it really seems ideal to not allow circumcision on infants. It's a good thing we've managed to eliminate certain other practices.

Hey hey
Some of us like our circumcised penises. And some of us like it that we were too young to remember it. I for one am glad that I was circumcised, AND at an age where I remember nothing of it.

I'd be very pissed if my parents waited. Imagine actually remembering that pain.

If it wasn't for my circumcision, I probably wouldn't have an opinion on the subject. I nearly died because of complications with my circumcision, so it's kinda obvious that I'm going to be against it. I don't really see the point in potentially risking someone's (or your own) life just to have a extra piece of skin removed for trivial reasons. If my child died because of MY decision, not his, to remove a piece of skin, I would never be able to deal with that kind of guilt.

As for female circumcision, just, fucking no.

Also, Christians aren't mindless cultists out to destroy everyone's dick. I'm not religious, but I still know that there's an entire letter in the bible talking specifically about how circumcision is vandalizing god's image of mankind. Religion is no excuse.

What can I say? My parents knew I was born to be a masochist.

I was circumcised when I was a baby, and of course I can't remember it. My dad said it wasn't necessary, but at the time, he was told by doctors that it would aid in the protection against disease; he believed it. Many people I know blame the Jews for establishing the practice, but I'm not sure if they really did start it. However, they do practice it. And no, I am not bashing Jews for their beliefs.

Foregen - Restoring Genital Integrity through Foreskin Regeneration

a little something I came across in my research. I don't know if they'll be a viable procedure for complete regeneration any time soon, though once there is, I know what I'm doing.

We never have bad discussions when we're discussing penises.