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Well, I talked with my dad about me possibly needing to go see a shrink, and he thinks it's a load of bullocks. He thinks chucking perfectly good money at a therapist for them to do something that you can do yourself, is pointless. He's a really tough guy (at least on the exterior), and has dealt with his own problems on his own his entire life... He thinks therapy and prescription psychiatry drugs are pointless and a waste of money.

My personal thought are that they are not, but that the person using them has to WANT to get better. Like me: I want to get help, I want to get better. I'm sick of the suicidal tendencies that I have. But not all people share the same views.

What are your thoughts?

I believe that Therapy helps people put themselves in the right mindset when they are scared and confused about something or want some kind of guidance. The consulting makes things clearer and gives them an anchor of authority that by working with these "trained" people they are on a road to recovery. So, yes I think therapy and psychiatrists do work and help people.

As for the drugs? No, but I also don't believe in clinical depression.

I agree with Ace regarding therapy, having somebody with some sense of authority guiding you along does give a good impression of going in the right direction, and also just having somebody to talk to, whether trained or not, can probably work wonders.

As for medication, I've seen the effect it has on my mom, when she's on her medication she's fairly happy, if a bit irritable at times, without her medication she suffers severe mood swings, usually in the form of anger, then she usually breaks down into tears, but nobody really wants to comfort her because she might get angry again and she is scary when she's angry.

Just don't go jumping towards the medication immediately, save that for down the line when most everything else has failed or fallen through, and then make sure to get properly diagnosed, because those kind of drugs will do much more harm then good if you are taking the wrong kind, and doctors aren't perfect, they make mistakes or get lazy, so if it does come down to medication make sure to get a few different opinions.

Think therapy/psychiatry is pointless. My mom wanted me to go into therapy tons of times. It bothered me immensely that she kept pushing it. Why did I need some stranger to bitch at about my problems? My HIGH SCHOOL problems. Problems that are just angsty teen bullshit. I got over my problems on my own and I wasn't mentally scarred for life. And psychiatrists just sit and nod and ask you how you feel. I know 5 people who are majoring in this subject. They even tell me that's all it is mostly. That and likening everything to sex and childhood trauma.

Psych drugs on the other hand, actually do things. But as for depression? No. I think that's also bullshit for various reasons.

This post has been edited by MintyLimeGreen: 13 January 2012 - 09:33 AM

Honestly, I don't. I just don't see the logic in paying a stranger to make him pretend like he cares. I've done it several times in my life at the recommendation of others, and it's never worked. All the person told me is stuff I already knew.

Psychiatrists are like medics. They just make you feel better, but they can't actually take care of the problem at the source. That's up to the PERSON himself to do that.

Yes, I believe Therapy/Psychiatry/Depression Drugs have there place, but are over prescribed or over used.

Many times a person will go a Therapy/Psychiatry simply because that don't want to deal with their own issues and want someone else to either feel sorry for them or fix their problems for them. There are some cases where a Therapy/Psychiatry is needed, but most of the time a person can work though the issues themselves.

Thereapy helps, but you have to want to do it. If you're forced or uninterested, then you will skip most of it, but if you really want to listen to whatever the shrink is saying, it will put you in a right mindset and might give you a point from where to start changing.
Maybe.

Depression drugs I unno.

I didn't start doing start seeing a therapist until I was 19 after I was done with high school. I feel it does help but like everyone else has said you have to want it.It also it takes finding the right one, it just like finding a doctor there are bad ones out there and then there are good ones.

I probably wouldn't be alive if it weren't for antidepressants and counselors. When my dad left, I needed both those things, and they both helped.

Saying that it's "bullshit" for everyone because they need to "suck it up and be a man" is a very 1950's era attitude, and totally insensitive to the people who genuinely need, or needed, help.

Therapy? I suppose it works, but helping your disorder depends largely on whether or not you want help. It never worked for me though, but it's a good way to unwind after having stress. Then again, my problems can't be solved with therapy.


Depression drugs? Yeah, I believe in them. I think they're over-prescribed though, and don't even get me started on the bullshit surrounding Abilify (a rather nasty antipsychotic now being used to treat depression).

Psychiatry in general? A fucking godsend. Once again I remind you guys I have a very serious psychiatric disorder, a "psychotic" disorder known as Schizoaffective Disorder. My flavor of the disorder is essentially what you'd get if you threw both Paranoid and Disorganized Schizophrenia as well as Bipolar disorder into a blender. Off medication, I hallucinate, and I often can't tell I'm hallucinating. Very stupid and dangerous ideas, as well as ideas that make no sense or do not do anything to solve the problem at hand, seem like good ideas. I believe very silly and unlikely things with enough strength to make a religious fanatic think I'm taking it too far. I lose track of time. My thought process and speech are horribly disrupted, and I link unrelated phrase together and jump from topic to topic when speaking. I even make nonsensical phrases. And I'm paranoid, extremely paranoid, and the thinks I think and am worried about are decided not grounded in logic. And unlike most people with my disorder, I am very, very violent. Furthermore, I suffer from episodes of mania, or extreme hyperactivity that can last days and up to a week, and depression, which can last over a fucking month. When "manic," my sense of judgment is impaired, I'm impulsive, irritable or overly cheerful, and for the love of God do not let me near any money, because I will spend it all on stupid shit.

Furthermore, I have Obsessive Compulsive Disorders as well, a rather debilitating anxiety disorder that causes me to be completely unable to remove worrisome thoughts from my mind except through some rather ritualistic "compulsions."

For mania, I take Lithium Carbonate, 600mg at night and 450mg in the morning. Trying to find a dose that works consistently is a crapshoot, as .01% over the working dose will cause me to OD, and .01% under means it will work shoddily.

For psychosis, I take Geodon, which has killed my ability to be sexually attracted to anyone or anything, impaired my ability to be aroused, nuked my motivation and gives me rather vivid, sometimes bizarre dreams. Given the touchiness of antipsychotics, I'll still with it, because it honestly beats my flavor of psychosis.

For the depression as well as the OCD, I take Paxil. Paxil isn't commonly used to treat anxiety disorders, but it works well enough. It works wonders in preventing me from hurting myself, too.

All of these meds add to my natural insomnia, so I take 10mg of Ambien every night.

Because of psych meds and psychiatry in general, I am far more functional than I was 10 years ago. My last hospitalization was when I was 19; that's almost nine years ago. Yes, the side effects are unpleasant, but the disorder itself is more so. Psychosis is a shit state of mind, I'd rather be a castrato than psychotic. And unlike a good number of people with Schizoaffective/Bipolar disorder, I rather dislike mania (which is why some of you on the IRC have seen me bitching about it--I don't like the physical effects of that state of mind).


JHawk, wake up and smell the coffee. There are at least 1 million people with my disorder a lone in the US, another one million people with true Schizophrenia, and a sizable chunk of the population has either true depression or some form of bipolar disorder. Furthermore, the stigma surrounding psychiatric treatment means most people with any disorder DON'T seek help, which makes all of these numbers realistically at least SIX TIMES more common than I just said. That makes psychiatry underused. And that doesn't count the other hundreds of psychiatric disorders out there. Frankly, you WON'T go to psychiatry for the reasons JHawk mentioned unless you have a factitious disorder like Munchausen's, in which case you're mentally ill anyway so you're still in the right place. You do not get a pity party, you get treated like a patient by the staff and shit by the people you know.

When I was fifteen, I spent a week at a psychiatric hospital. I should have stayed longer. They put my on prozac, and once I got out, I went to see a therapist. They helped me too. They upped my dosage, and should have given me a different drug, but my mom cut me off of them.

In the state I'm in, if I take a step back, I can tell that I'm a real mess. I mean I talk to myself, I go in and out of periods of hysteria, I cry a fucking lot, and I'm always angry. So It's pretty much gotten to the point where I either need to see a shrink or go back to a hospital. I know my issues aren't nearly as bad as, say yours Charcar, but wanting to throw myself into traffic every time I go out in public can't be a healthy thing. It really can't.

My left arm is all covered in gashes and scabs and cuts and scars. I'm just... lost.

I've always been talking to myself and never thought it's an issue of any sort. Helps clear my thoughts when I can reply to my thoughts verbally. Plus, it activates different neural connections, actually possibly helping my brain develop and reorganize associations better than if I was just thinking.

Or something.

For a person who doesn't want to think that the human psyche is merely an emergent property of the nervous system and whatnot I sure find neuroscience fascinating.

As for how this is actually related to the thread, it isn't

Talking to yourself isn't an illness, esa. Psychiatric hospitals actually go out of their way to tell you that it's beneficial to your psyche.

Talking to invisible people from the CIA and yammering about them bugging your teeth, however, is a sign of mental illness. It's something completely different.

Yes I think therapy is a great way to get help, or hell, just talking to someone close to you is, that's what I do when I get my own depressing thoughts from stress and over worrying. Just make sure you talk to someone, hell get on the IRC and start chatting if that's what you have to do to keep from hurting yourself further. Just talking it out with a few anonymous faces on the internet can help a ton, (cause I totally didn't do that last night), but for the serious problems or ones that won't go away by talking to an average Joe, I do recommend a trained professional.

As for drugs, eh I think there are other alternatives better for you and your body than increasing an already obvious hormone imbalance, though that being said, yes sometimes it is necessary. But heck, working out can pump you full of endorphins that will make you feel better so just get up and do some aerobics or something if you really can't get prescription meds.

On final think I want to address:

MintyLimeGreen, on 13 January 2012 - 09:32 AM, said:

If your friends really do believe this then they are going into the WRONG profession or will end up being terrible therapist. Or NeoFreudians which is just as terrifying. Yes good therapists help you find the answers inside, but they can also offer incite from an outside trained source, they do NOT just liken everything to sex, good lord that is such an outdated assumption.

Tom Cruise told me not to believe in this.

The Altar and the Confession. Forgive me.
Please. Oh Dear God.
Payment upfront. The Modern Church Rules.
An old ritual - The excorcism has begun.

Little man in leather chair. Empty shell.
What's the demons name?
Childhood, or genes? What's Reason today?
I'll guess: Nervous breakdown. White Room.

The priest sits with a passive smile,
as flesh, a zombie
who's trying to understand its own decay.
Religion is called psychology today -

You call me sick, possessed with a demon
a psychotic, insane -
but the Sickness is not mine, it is yours
you see in me the hell you dared not be.

"The Modern Church of Psychology" (I can't find the author)

EDIT: So Susan doesn't bitch more than usual:

*HINT HINT* Do people who don't work with society need a psychologist? *HINT HINT* Has the field of psychology really stayed true to science and the purpose of helping real issues or has it degenerated and become something else? *HINT HINT*

This post has been edited by Itu: 14 January 2012 - 07:38 AM

I can't really say I don't believe in it. I just think that the three are ineffective.

MintyLimeGreen, on 13 January 2012 - 09:32 AM, said:

Well zippa-dee fucking doo dah for you, buddy. I'm glad that you didn't need to go to a therapist for your retarded teenage problems, and that subsequently you think depression is a load of bullshit.

But it's not. It's a medically-accepted condition. It has biological and mental causes. So you, quite frankly, are full of absolute shit and until you produce a certificate that tells me you are a doctor educated in that specific genre of medicine, and then give me a concise explanation accompanied by proof why the medical community is suddenly retarded, I'll believe the experts over you - because I have it. Clinical depression.

Unlike you, I don't have menial problems. I'm a transwoman and my mind is assaulted by itself every day. I haven't gone a single hour without thinking of killing myself, or week without sobbing. I haven't taken medicine, and I've only recently got a new therapist. My experiences with my previous one are unlike any you have described - Commie is right. Your numbnut retarded friends are picking the wrong career and because of their idiotic take on helping people, I have no doubt they will spur their patients to kill themselves.

My therapist didn't sit there and ask me how it felt. She worked with me to get an online education, worked with me to try and find a job and consoled me when I needed it. She offered suggestions and advice, and even devised a plan so I could lose weight. She put me in contact with LBGTQ organizations and even when her internship was nearly over she kept working to keep me sane. She was an amazing woman and without her help I wouldn't be where I am today. A lot of self-discovery went on inside that small little room, and I'm a better person for it. I'm glad I worked up the courage to seek out a new therapist.

I can't just 'get over' my problems (the crippling depression, gender identity issues, constant child abuse and constant anger), and this is why people like TD who try and explain to me that it's so easy are stupid. They have a big brain, but the size doesn't come from intelligence. It comes from ego. Are you going to tell me you think pulmonary embolisms aren't true either? Well, both you and Ace don't have a PhD in anything, so I am more inclined to believe the doctor TRAINED TO TREAT PEOPLE LIKE ME when he diagnoses me with something instead of some retarded teenager.

Don't you dare compare yourself to other people. You're lucky you went through your youth with minimal issues. Not everyone is like that, and because you were fortunate doesn't mean anyone else can get over their problems. Just because you didn't sob about not being able to bone some slut in your classroom doesn't mean that I can just get over the fact I was born in the wrong body, and for you to equate my issues - or anyone's for that matter - to yours for a nanosecond is trivializing the years of pain and agony I've gone through, with only more to come. You're ignorant.

Aside from that, Aramis, your father is a fucktard. He sounds like my dad, who is also a tough-guy biker. And he is also a fucktard. This is 1950 when everyone had a mind as narrow as a needle. Unfortunately for him psychiatry is a legitimate field and what happens daily does have an effect on the human mind. If you think you need therapy then fuck what he thinks, go get it. It helped me out more than I'd care to admit. I'd have most likely killed myself by now if it wasn't for someone helping me out, someone I could rely on always like my therapist.

Save the drugs for later, though I wouldn't take them at all. I don't need medicine to make me feel better, it's bliss through ignorance. As long as I keep popping pills, I won't need to focus on making my life better and I can just trudge on through hopped up like a needlehead. While it works for some people, that is just the effect it would have on me. I encourage you to try every avenue possible to make it better before falling back to drugs.

Also, Itu, please fuck off. Your dumb poems/song lyrics aren't contributing anything to the conversation, and if you have to rely on other, more talented folk to do your work for you, I don't want to hear what you have to say.

This post has been edited by Susan: 14 January 2012 - 07:10 AM

Susan, on 14 January 2012 - 07:09 AM, said:

It's food for thought, touching subjects like labeling everyone who doesn't work in society as needing a psychologist and the degeneration of true psychology, which haven't been touched much and would be interesting to see.

I'm much more interested in the reactions of people and in reading the discussion than contributing to it, as I don't believe I'm well-versed enough in the subject to contribute with a thorough opinion or analysis.

This post has been edited by Itu: 14 January 2012 - 07:33 AM

I didn't go through "minimal issues" I went through some hell myself. I just handled it on my own, that's all. Most of it was during my childhood. I was berated by my parents, hell by almost all of my family, when I was 6. I was outright told I was hated and wouldn't amount to anything and that no one would even notice if I died. I went through middle school and high school with the same pair of clothes because I was refused anything new even when I outgrew it. I was often refused food because I told my siblings needed it more than I did. I was told many times that I was supposed to be aborted, but lucked out. I was told how unwanted I was on a daily basis and how useless I was. I had to get a job as soon as I could obtained a workers permit just so I could buy a decent pair of shoes and lunch for school. I've been verbally, mentally and physically abused by my family for numerous years. I've had to deal with enormous amounts of stress since I was a little kid. I didn't get any sort of relief until I moved out on my own. Even now I scrape to get by and constantly have to worry about not being able to pay the rent or electric bill. I have to work two different departments to get by. That on top of school stresses me out enough as it is.

Also, don't call those people my friends. I said I knew 5 people. I never said they were friends. They're people who are in my mandatory feminism class who I get grouped up with on occasion who like to brag about their major.

But thanks for saying you're way worse off than I could ever be because you're a transgender. I suppose that automatically makes your life so much harder.

I like how this thread implies that although years of medical research has proven a lack of serotonin in the brain can cause various mental defects, medicine that increases that is now an issue of But do you believe in it! I don't see it as some mystical fairy godmother that waves her wand and makes sadness poof away, the truth is that certain people lack certain chemicals, through the fault of genes. In other words, if sadness runs in your family, you might be a Depressed Dan. It's honestly pretty funny how many people seem to think medication is supposed to be some mystical little bottle of grounded up pixie-dick, that can cure all ailments.

This post has been edited by Number101: 14 January 2012 - 07:34 AM

Actually, I'm sorry Susan. I didn't mean to lash out at you like that. While I don't think what you insinuated about me was very fair, I honestly have no idea how it is to be transgender. I sat down and thought about it and realized it's probably really hard. Especially if you have a family who's not supportive of it. At least you have the courage to be who you are even if it's difficult. It's not like I had a personal vendetta against you, so I apologize if I struck a nerve with you and I hope you don't take it personally.

You said you had 'angsty teenage bullshit'. That's not 'angsty teenage bullshit'. Not my fault you didn't specify.

My intention was to explain that - going by what you said (which you said yourself was angsty teenage bullshit, therefore trivializing your own problems) you implied you had a mostly untroubled life and therefore other people can deal with more serious problems on their own, which is unfair to think.

The point still stands; not everyone can be as strong as you to march through hell, and not everyone will be minimally affected by abuse and pain or be able to deal with it alone.

This post has been edited by Susan: 14 January 2012 - 03:44 PM

Susan, on 14 January 2012 - 03:36 PM, said:

I agree with that 100%

@MintyLimeGreen

The problem here is that you're comparing yourself to other people. Each individual person is different, for a plethora of reasons. This means that in a universe where there is no objective meaning, everything means something different to everyone else. There are some people out there who could go through virtually anything, and others who can't. I'm not going to go into the long, drab discussion as to why, but it is simply the way it is. Some people in your position would have killed themselves, others maybe not.


As for my feelings on the matter at hand... Yes, I think therapy does serve a purpose, but I don't care to discuss therapy, because that would be another drab discussion.

As for medication, I also think that is useful. However, I do think clinical depression is over-diagnosed. I think majority of cases out there are a problem with one's frame of mind. I'm not saying that it is any easier or harder a problem to solve, or that it is any more or less important to deal with. All I'm saying is that I don't feel like one's thought processes are given enough credit in today's society.

Hey, has anyone ever thought about how over-diagnosing depression would be directly beneficial to a psychologist's or psychiatrist's job (more specifically the latter)?

Not to mention that over-diagnosing can lead to self-fulfilling prophecy. Well gee, the Doc says I'm depressed, so I must be.

This is the kind of conversation I was hoping to generate.

I really think therapy's uses and medication's uses depend on the person, but it should not be used as a crutch. I think it should go hand-in-hand with the want and desire to feel and get better. If the person is always saying that they'll never get better, they really won't.

I feel that the mind is an incredibly powerful thing, and can affect the way a lot of people live their lives.

@Susan: Thanks for the support, Susan. Means a lot. And yeah, my dad can be really narrow-minded, it's maddening. Also, I'm sorry to hear that things have been so difficult for you. I've no idea what it's like to be transgender, and to have gender identity issues, but I'm sure that it is very, very hard. I can only imagine, and I applaud you for working through it.

@Minty: While I agree with some of the things you said, I think that everyone is different and has a different way of feeling degrees of pain. for example, those terrible things you felt in HS may have been "angsty teen bullshit" to you, but say to Joe Cool over there in the corner, he could be harboring intense feelings of hate and going home every night to cut lines into himself with a kitchen knife. I think you're mentally healthy to be saying what you have, whereas people such as myself am not.

@Meowth: Yeah. I agree, I think depression is way over-diagnosed in today's society. I think if everyone I knew went to a shrink, %90 of them would be diagnosed with it. I think it's the pressures of today's economy and stresses that factor into it. I mean, if the economy in America wasn't shit, I'm sure a lot of people that I know would be living peacefully.

@Purin: Oh yeah. I totally agree with this.

Loving this conversation so far, let's continue it. I'll perpetuate it with this question: anyone who's been through/is currently going through therapy, how is helping you, and in what shape would you be if you weren't going through it?

I hate to think that Therapists really over diagnose depression, honestly it's probably more of regular doctors that diagnose it or just people saying they do when they have never been to a doctor for it. If they are over diagnosing it though, they wouldn't push the meds, they don't get benefit for how much is sold, its the drug companies themselves.

I'm not gonna be blind and say that everyone is good in the world and only try to help others, but I would like to think that the over diagnosis of C.D, isn't nearly as high as 90%. Though I do think a large part of it could simply be handed to how much the inner school systems push conformity and the effects of bulling for refusing to conform and the mental scarring that causes impressible children. That horror will follow them into life and effect their everyday outlook and eventually lead to C.D. But at the same time I also believe that a bit of it is how you handle it.

All through high school I pushed my own depression away and just hid behind a mask I made for myself as the more "Happy-go-lucky" girl. Ignoring what my peers, and friends and family made fun of me for. The bitchy school mates? They were stuck up and would never amount to anything so why did I care what they said? Friends? Well they were just joking and so what if I'm always the butt of the joke? Family? Well my dad is just an ass who cares what he thinks? So what if I hadn't had a boyfriend yet, I didn't really like any of the guys I went to high school with anyways. There was never the revelation of "Oh I'm fat and lazy and stupid just like my dad and friends always said." or "Oh i'm ugly that's why guys ignore me and always go for my friends." It was kind of something that developed gradually and I just kind of came to accept as fact.

But then college hit and all these insecurities would come out but I couldn't tell anyone. No, I had made this mask for myself and that was really me, I wasn't , I was just having a bad day, or week, or month, or several months. Guys start noticing me? Well it's cause they only want sex or i'm suddenly cute now or something but I'll just annoy them and they will find someone prettier than me, everyone is prettier than me. Why try in school? Everyone was right I'm really just stupid and lazy and will never be anyone, what's the use? Hell I still struggle with this stuff on a daily basis, but do I think I need to go talk to a therapist or get medicated? No not really, I recognize when I start having suicidal thoughts and I'll find someone to talk to, someone to be with so I'm not alone. Would medication help? Eh I don't really think so, not in my case at least, my depression more likely stems from Bipolar disorder or something similar so then I would have to start making time for a counciler and they would check up on me and that would just make me feel more awkward then to help.

But if you want to get help then by all means do, I personally don't but that's just me. I still recognize when I'm in danger and can get help, others have to handle each case differently. I'm not saying I have C.D. and i'm certainly not saying that talking won't help, but I think that even if you think you might have it then yes, you should talk to someone about it.

That is a incredibly long incoherent rant, isn't it.

This post has been edited by Leaving_a_Comment: 14 January 2012 - 07:03 PM

Quote

But is that really clinical depression? Depression is both a state of mind and a disorder. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it is only a "disorder" if there is some type of hormonal imbalance. Clinical depression causes the feeling of depression, but the reverse is not true. And like I said before, that doesn't make one more important than the other, it simply means it should be handled differently. Isn't it possible that a decent percentage of the negative stories involving anti-depressants may actually have occurred because they're being prescribed to people who feel bad, but aren't actually clinically depressed? The pills don't attempt to make you happy, because if they did, that would only hurt you in the long-run (ecstasy, anyone?). What they do is attempt to correct the issue that is inciting the depression - a hormonal imbalance. That means they could be causing hormonal imbalances in people who didn't have one to begin with.

And Commie, as for the personal issues you just described, that doesn't sound like clinical depression to me. Once again, I'm not saying they don't sound serious and don't deserve help; I'm just saying that they could all easily be explained as entirely situational. Of course, they COULD be clinical, and that is just another reason why getting a psychologist is a good thing if you're truly feeling bad.

Disorders aren't just chemicals imbalances no, and I said that no my personal experiences aren't really clinical depression, if anything my depression is caused by something else, but I'm not assuming anything and self diagnosing.

As for getting a psychologist, I don't think it's best for me, no. I would be an awkward turtle the whole time and just try to find out about psychology more anyways, since it's what I'm studying. But no, I have to really trust and know someone for a long time before I will talk to them, and I do talk to people and I realize I have a problem, I just don't see a need to go and get diagnosed since I'll just worry about it more and try to use it as an excuse when I don't feel like doing something or I'm getting picked on. And because I am fairly familiar with the field I don't think I could be properly tested for anything anyways.

Look at all of you failing at the biochemical model of psychiatry.

Depression, bipolar disorder, psychosis etc has nothing to do with hormones, but chemicals that make the brain work. Serotonin, for example. They brain can be too sensitive to these chemicals or they can produce to much, but no one's sure. Fun fact: most psych meds work, but for many of them we don't know WHY they work or what they target. Depression is linked to serotonin, so that's plain and simple, but no one knows WHY a person with bipolar disorder becomes manic or WHY a schizophrenic hallucinates. There isn't even a consensus on whether or not the hallucinations in psychosis are misinterpreted thoughts of the misinterpretation of an external stimuli. A hormonal problem is a hormonal imbalance, but mental illness isn't cause by hormonal imbalances. It is, however, incredibly common for a manic person or a depressed or psychotic individual to have a hormonal imbalance a symptom of the disorder, but that's because the brain is chemically and physically fucked up.

Other than surgery, the only option is medication, and medication works better with less long term damage.

This post has been edited by Carcharocles: 14 January 2012 - 08:38 PM

Yeah, frontal lobe lobotomies just aren't what Dr. Freeman hyped them up to be...

I should mention I was mistaken about my definition of clinical depression. According to Berkeley, it is just when you feel depressed a lot.

So yeah, I guess with a vague definition like that it is virtually impossible to over-diagnose.

It also mentioned how depression can affect biological functions! I found that mildly fascinating.

@Car

I was under the impression Serotonin was a hormone.

This post has been edited by Meowth: 14 January 2012 - 08:45 PM

No, serotonin is not a hormone. It's a neurotransmitter. Same with Dopamine and adrenaline.

It's a chemical that helps the brain work. Without serotonin, you'd be no different from corpse. Hormones are a completely different type of chemical that serve a distinctly different purpose.

This post has been edited by Carcharocles: 14 January 2012 - 09:32 PM

Carcharocles, on 14 January 2012 - 09:30 PM, said:

This. Neurotransmitters are what moves impulses between the sides of a synapse. It's only an electric impulse in the nerve cells themselves and they aren't directly connected.

This post has been edited by esalaka: 14 January 2012 - 09:59 PM

I thought serotonin was merely a chemical in the brain? I didn't think it was a neurotransmitter o_o

Serotonin is a neurotransmitter. We're studying this stuff in psychology right now.

That sounds so... technological o_o neato.

So I sat down and talked with my dad, and he said "Oh god." and rolled his eyes... He really didn't want to talk to me about it. It made me pretty upset. My mom's all for it though, but won't pay for it. But anyway, yeah, my dad is dead set against it. It makes me sad that he can't understand that it's what I feel like I have to do.

Anyway.

Yeah I was probably just throwing the use of Hormones around carelessly, but to me since they are chemicals, the small details of it don't really matter to what we are trying to get across anyways. The fact is that there is some kind of problem in the brain, chemical imbalances or brain damage or things we dont even understand as of yet that cause something to go wrong in the brain.

Admitibly I have put off taking my physiopsych class cause I find stuff like human anatomy incredibly boring so on the actual physical effects I know only the basics, tl;dr version.

Leaving_a_Comment, on 15 January 2012 - 12:04 AM, said:

Hormones often mainly move in the bloodstream, neurotransmitters between neurons. There really is a difference. You can't just bunch up "chemicals" under one category.

This post has been edited by esalaka: 15 January 2012 - 12:12 AM

The reality is that a lot of these drugs no longer beat placebos in trials, indicating that, whatever benefits they grant, they aren't actually THAT effective.

The real thing is therapy plus drugs; I think people are overmedicated, and it is abundantly clear that the fact that so many people are classified as depressed is wrong, because throughout history, similar rates -must have- occurred unless it is being caused by environmental factors, something which has never been proven.

So to put it bluntly, unless there is something we are doing that is causing this, a large percentage of depression diagnoses which result in medication are wrong, and due to the side effects and cost of the medication, ultimately -bad- for the patient.

In reality, you're almost as well off taking sugar pills that you BELIEVE are antidepressants as to take actual antidepressants, and the side effects are obviously nonexistant.

Titanium Dragon, on 15 January 2012 - 12:19 AM, said:

I'd argue that if there's that high a psychosomatic effect, you could believe in possible side effects as well. Of course, there would be no physically caused side effects, which is a plus.

On the other hand, psychological problems can be caused by neurochemical imbalance or a physical change in the brains, in which case medication might be the only answer.

Titanium Dragon, on 15 January 2012 - 12:19 AM, said:

As I pointed out before, the actual definition to depression is rather vague. Pretty much everyone is clinically depressed by Berkeley's standards. Of course, putting that pointless definition behind, I completely agree. It is over-diagnosed.

Medicalisation is profitable to relevant companies.

That's really all it needs.

I truly, genuinely believe I would have killed myself years ago if I hadn't had a therapist. I was repressing all sorts of anger and self-loathing, and it would have come out in a much more severe manner then it did. Plus, I have a fantastic psychologist, who not only listen to what I say, gives me a lot of insight that I really need. Her general approach to therapy is "Throw stuff at the wall, and see what sticks," which basically means she has me talk about my feelings and go on and on until she notices something odd, speaks up, and I either go "Nah, I don't think that's quite it..." or "Oh, that makes sense," or just as often "That's only part of it, I think."

I personally think drugs should be a last ditch resort, once you've exhausted everything else.


@Car - Some funfacts: My father actually works at the company that makes Geodon, and I used to see a doctor who helped develop it. Plus, my brother tried that drug for his bipolar when he was younger. The results... well they weren't optimal.


Also, because Taeshi posted what she did:

Therapy is something very helpful, I've been through it, and even still today I check in when things are going poorly for me. Honestly therapy itself isn't comparable to a band-aid where you put it over a booboo and then that's it... you see, admiting you need help, and going to see a therapist is a helluva accomplishment, and it can be very stressful as well.

I hate seeing my therapist at times, because generally therapists aren't there to give you answers to all your problems. They are there to help guide you to the right answer that you have to make yourself. I've been told by one of my prior therapists that we all know the answers and what we must do, but we just need to at time look at things at different perspectives. And my therapist offers those, making me consider why people do things, or why I feel a certain way. This sort of soul searching can be very painful and scary, no one wants to at time sit down and consider how they may be in the wrong or why someone may act a certain way or perhaps why they feel so horrible( we tend to suppress things like this). Hence I hate it, it is like how any one may hate eating healthy and exercising.

But in the long run it is good for me, and I've gotten so far and picked my life back up.

Life has its ups and downs, and therapy will and can never completely cure you. Eventually shit happens, and you may have to return. Do not let this get to you, this is how life is. It has its ups and downs, but to get through the bad times we must address our feelings properly and not be afraid to seek help from either a professional or understanding family.

As for medication, this can be a crutch, in our time it is a quick outlet that allows people to avoid directly dealing with a lot of their emotions. This does not make medication bad, as some mentioned we all are different. I take medication for my bipolar disorder, there are people out there who don't, but they have a helluva time having as near as a functional life as I can because some of these disorders can be VERY debilitating(my god I do not want to think about going back to way life was when I wasn't popping my pills.), and that is what mainly you have to consider along with your doctor.

Quote

Thing is there are many types of pharmopsychiatry, and not all of them are as terrible as antidepressants (or as dubious in their efficacy). There are definitely a number of drugs which -do- in fact work, demonstrably, on a wide range of mental disorders.

I think this is one of those issues where people mistake one problem (antideps) for a more general one (all psychological drugs). There are many conditions which can be very effectively treated by drugs, its just somewhat questionable whether depression is (or even should be) one of them.

It's hard to get an exact diagnosis on mental illnesses. Everyone was just making educate guesses and subscribing me one drug after another until they just decided to stick with the most affordable one, which coincidentally seemed to be the most effective. Kind of weird that they didn't start with that one. I don't take meds anymore but I find that I'm better off taking them. I liked my Psychiatrist, best creepy old guy there is.

Titanium Dragon, on 15 January 2012 - 12:19 AM, said:

Do environmental factors include sociological factors? I don't really believe that similar rates occurred throughout history if only due to the vagueness of the current definition. We have proof that it did happen, just not on that scale, and we'll never really know. It's hard enough to get many people even to admit that they have valid symptoms. Over-medicated and over-diagnosed? Yes, but I'm still not willing to say flat out that there is nothing about our time that hasn't exacerbated existing problems.

Therapy can help...if the therapist is actually competent enough to tell you what he/she thinks. Usually, they are. I can't speak for that, myself, but I bet my family could...

A lot of people close to me, like family members, have over the years suffered from bi-polar disorders, manic depression, drug abuse, and even a few suicide watches. They would be a lot worse off without the anti-depressant drugs and everything. If not for the drugs, I think some of them would be dead, now, and that's a scary fucking thought. Drugs aren't perfect, of course; some of the merely substitute one bad for another. Mental illness, as MouseCat said, is tricky. The idea, though, is to give someone a bad that they can actually get along with. At least my family members are all still alive. They're all doing okay, right now.

Get your dad to get you help, Amaris. Don't delay it.

This post has been edited by NintendoSegaSonyGuy: 18 January 2012 - 03:41 AM