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Jane Elliott is an American teacher who is the creator of the famous brown-eye/blue-eye exercise that is she designed to teach people what racism feels like. However, she and her exercise has been constantly criticized as being too harsh and for being extremely manipulative. After watching this video, what do you think? Do you think she's being too harsh? Personally, I think that her harshness in question is needed in order to get the message across to those who do the exercise.

This post has been edited by Kaxbe: 23 January 2012 - 04:51 PM

At first, I found the length of this video a bit jarring, but I'm glad I watched it. I'm fairly confident that her harshness was not at all misplaced, and that the lesson itself could not have been taught to the degree it was without that harshness.

I think it was a valuable lesson, but there is a lot more to both life and racism than what was showed. This seemed to be made entirely to show to white people how blacks feel from constantly being treated racist, and she appears to be under the impression every white person is unaware of the treatment and that all black people are treated poorly. Yes, racism still goes on in some places; it is mostly a geographic issues. Assuming it goes on everywhere is ludicrousness - at least to this extent.

She also focuses entirely on racism aimed at Latinos and Blacks. She completely ignores racism toward whites and acts as though it does not happen. I can understand that racism toward colored peoples is more relevant, and I can understand the aim at correction, but if she is going to include lessons on sexism, ageism, and on any other difference, I really feel like it should have been mentioned. Racism is not something exclusive to white people, and acting as though they're never discriminated against is simply moronic.

All in all, though, I think it was a valuable lesson, and I'm glad I watched the video.

Meowth, she actually did this exercise in the UK as well and was met with extreme hostility by the white people participating. I think it's rather silly to claim that racism is a geographic issue.

I didn't mean on a country to country basis. I meant a more vague term, like "area." I say that because demographics will obviously affect racism in certain areas. Around where I live, there are predominately Hispanics (I would bet money it is same with the "area" you live in), and while it is not a very racist area there is probably more hatred toward white people than anyone else.

I think one of the main things she aims at here is the concept of white being the "standard" and all other races being the "different" or so. The "I don't see you as a black person" phrase which is emphasised a lot is a big part of this. People say it thinking they mean "I see you as a normal person, therefore I don't judge you by your colour", but this thought will (unknowingly) always mean "Being white is normal and everything else is a deviation". If your friend asks you "who is John?", if he's white you would say "He's the one in the suit." or "He's the one in the middle.", etc. If he's black you'd say "He's the black one" or "He's the african-american one" (if you're in the US). Therein lies again this assumption that the norm, the standard is to be white and that is the most widespread form of racism, among people who would never consider themselves racist or really mistreat someone of a different ethnicity. This also applies to many other issues. The standard is to be white, male, middle aged, straight, etc. Any deviation suddenly make us subconsciously define the person by it.

I think there's also a huge cultural aspect here to be taken into account, not just an ethnic one. An interesting public discussion I attended a few years ago on prejudice showed us how cultures can superficially look very similar and look irrelevant at first, but that cultures are VERY different at their core and based on completely different world-views which are difficult to change and often difficult to concile.

A worthwhile video to watch, certainly.

Heh, with my avatar and what I said people might assume i'm black. Just to put into perspective, I'm white and blond and male. I have experienced some prejudice for being a "foreigner". It is quite clear to most here I'm not a local as soon as they lay eyes on me. Though generally I must say I haven't had too many bad experiences. I hate it that our world is like this, but thank god I was born white. Being on the receiving end of prejudice is utter shit.

Migrant, on 23 January 2012 - 10:01 PM, said:

I personally don't think that is, in and of itself, a form of racism. Your example was also a bit vague. If they were all different races, I would probably say "it is the white guy." If it was two white guys and a black guy, then I would say "the guy in the suit." If it was two black guys and a white guy, then I would say "the white guy."

Also, I don't see how being a white, male, middle-aged, straight, ect. is the status quo. I guarantee if you took the cookie-cutter person and put him in a group of black lesbians (albeit an extreme example), he will be the deviation. What needs to be understood is white male is only the status quo sometimes. If I go into a ghetto, I'm not going to be expecting Jews and assume every colored person to be a deviation. And that isn't racism, it is statistics.

This post has been edited by Meowth: 23 January 2012 - 10:14 PM

Being white, male, straight, etc. is the status quo because those are the groups which have more power when compared to people who are not, Meowth.

Yes, that would apply if we were dividing up Africa, but if I was to view things from a more reasonable perspective, such as applying for a job or talking to a person on the street, than no, the status quo changes.

How so? Because last time I checked white was still the standard as to what is most desirable. The media is a great example of this and so is the top 100 companies in America, and that's not even mentioning politics.

Meowth, on 23 January 2012 - 10:11 PM, said:

Even in regions where the majority is black or asian, in the west the status quo is often still being white, male, straight, etc. You put up some extreme examples, but these people would just look out of place, they would still not be defined by their appearance.

Yeah, but that's a single instance and doesn't even have much to do with racism at all. You've pretty much completely bastardized what Migrant was saying to unrelated nonsense.

of course you could dig up examples where it is different, but generally out in the street and in most workplaces, etc, the status quo IS white, male, straight, etc. and that is a defining factor.

Migrant, on 23 January 2012 - 10:43 PM, said:

Not to mention how Western civilization played a big role in areas which don't have a lot of white people, like Southeast Asian. Even then white people are considered more desirable than Asians. In China, a company is seen as more prestigious if they have a white person as part of their staff, just because, "hey. it's a white dude and those people dominate world markets."

Interesting that, kax. I only said the west because I really have no experience on how it works in Asia and Africa and because I wrongly consider South America to be western.

Migrant, on 23 January 2012 - 10:43 PM, said:

I have to disagree.

Kaxbe, on 23 January 2012 - 10:44 PM, said:

I don't know how I bastardized anything. By all means, point it out to me.

Also, I provided two instances, and it would be easy to provide more. And you're right, they didn't have anything to do with racism, that was my point. But yes, I suppose being a white male is the status quo, in the same way being rich in America is. The joke is that most people in America are not rich. Notice how those two statements are in direct conflict with each other?

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What is your point?

This post has been edited by Meowth: 23 January 2012 - 10:58 PM

I was trying to further point out how racism is not a geographical problem.

Also, the thing about the whole instances you gave... we were talking about white, straight, male, etc. was the status quo because of racism/sexism/etc. That's why it's the status quo.

You are right, meowth. being majority has nothing to do with being status quo. Prejudice based on wealth is one of the strongest and most widespread types of prejudice back in Brazil for example (in terms of how much shit you get, it is much worse to be white and poor there than to be black and wealthy). Interestingly, in many regions of Brazil, the blacks outnumber the whites by a LOT. It's much more closely related to who holds power and who has historically held power.

A white person would be discriminated against in a gang in brooklin not because he's a minority there, but because the power is in the hand of black people. Perhaps a similar position would be white rappers being discriminated against?

This post has been edited by Migrant: 23 January 2012 - 11:04 PM

Kaxbe, on 23 January 2012 - 11:01 PM, said:

I thought I already explained what I meant by bringing up geography. I meant in a FAR smaller scale than what you and Migrant mean. What might apply here, in Florida, might completely change a few miles down the road or might stay the same three states over. Moral of the story, demographics.

Also, I hate to break it to you, but racism/sexism/ect. are not directly related to status quo. Therefore, you can't call white, straight, male, ect. the status quo just because of racism/sexism/ect. They do influence each other, that I won't deny, but they're not one in the same, so I don't exactly see what you're trying to say here.

This post has been edited by Meowth: 23 January 2012 - 11:14 PM

Fine. Being white is the "default". That is more accurate, if we're going to play little word games.

You're a moron.

This whole thing reminds me of the Book "The Wave"

How am I being a moron, Meowth? I would've thought that you would've at least tried to post something more before resorting to name calling.

What this makes me think of is how strangers make me feel a bit uncomfortable and I ignore them when possible, so far as I can tell regardless of any observable characteristics, but when the strangers are black I feel racist. I find that to be an interesting phenomenon.

You should check out the UK version which Elliott oversaw. They were so hostile to the whole idea, it's ridiculous. "Racism? Here? Posh. Impossible."

You want another role reversal situation? Go read "Noughts and Crosses". Black people are treated like white people and white people are treated like black people in a 1950s style while still being in a 21st century year.

WHY?!
Kaxbe. I see where Meowth is coming from on this. Racism in Florida is different than racism in Texas.
Meowth. No name calling. Name calling leads to hate, which leads to division of people which is one of the main factors of racism.
Migrant. Good points, but in the future please capitalize names. Having a teacher for an aunt has made me spot grammatical errors in typing. Sorry.
Don't hate me 'cause I'm genius.

I think part of the reason for the hostility is the implication that white people are inherently more racist than people who aren't white, which is doubly funny firstly because it is (at least arguably) itself racist, and secondly because studies have shown that the most racist people are, perhaps ironically, visible ethnic minorities, who likewise tend to be the most discriminated against groups. If you look at race-based violence, a great deal of it is between minorities in the US.

Of course, the actual cause of this is poverty - the poorer you are, the more racist you are likely to be.

Incidentally, regarding white being preferable to other states - this is actually true across all cultures, but is most likely a genetic preference as opposed to a cultural one. Just as taller people are more attractive than shorter ones, lighter skinned folk are perceived as being more attractive as well. While obviously not absolutes (there are those who go against this norm!), it is a general tendency. One interesting question, though, is whether this is pure sexual selection, or in some way is selecting for other traits - it is known, for instance, that height and intelligence correlate (that is to say, the taller you are, the smarter you are likely to be on average, though there is obviously variation).

True.

Isn't the correlation between height and intelligence most likely related to wealth? People with money are more likely to be better educated as well as better nourished and healthier during childhood, and therefore taller?

Meowth, I feel you're pushing the issue away here. The point wasn't that whites are the only racists and of course the amount of racism varies by county and town, or state to state. What she's saying is, racism in some shape or form is so imbedded into culture and society that people don't even realize it's there, an example being you. You don't need to have black people dragged through the streets every week or so to know "hey, something doesn't seem right here...". Skin color matters, a fucking lot. Job interviews, getting into schools, applying for health care, there have been plenty of studies showing you're much more likely to do well in any of these situations if you're white, despite having the exact same life and qualifications. Straight white male is the status quo because they're the ones in power, and even if you make a point with 'well what if it's a white guy with 10 black lesbians, then what?' you didn't prove anything. White males still control A FUCKING LOT OF THINGS. Even in other countries whites are seen as better in some way.

This doesn't mean only white people are racist, it's just showing the reason why racism is even there. Whites think ethnic people are inferior, or that they're okay as long as they ignore their ethnicity. Minorities either hate whites for having power over them, or they hate any race not their own as a way to project their feelings of hurt and despair on some other poor saps. Then you get little suburban white kids who are ignorant as shit to all this and aren't even racist, but upon meeting some minorities might get mistreated because they saw all white people as the same (because that's how they were made to think). Then you get arguments like 'whites aren't the only racists, lots of black people hate me and are mean to me and I didn't even do anything!'

No shit kid, this is what society wants. We all subconsciously WANT someone to blame, be it the white man or disrespectful minorities or the gays or the jews or liberal pussies or conservative pigs or SOME kind of false dichotomy that makes us think we have a 'side' and there's someone to blame. The system is set up so everyone causes everyone else's pain.

For some insight, I was born and raised in Paterson, as the only Italian kid in a ghetto full of Arabics, Turks, Blacks and Hispanics. My neighbor had 4 wifes, my other neighbor sold drugs and car radios. Across the street an old woman had chickens and a Mary statue in the front, and on the corner was a fenced yard where fighting pit bulls were beaten to be extra pissed come fight night. A few blocks down a Mosque was being used as a cover to send money and firearms to Afghanistan. Being the little squishy butterball I was, my parents had me go to a catholic school an hour away to keep me safe, since the public school no 9 was Blood. Do you know how weird it is, going from that environment to a school in a delightful suburb with ONE black kid in the ENTIRE SCHOOL? I was discriminated at home for being a fat white kid with a family. I was discriminated at school for being a fat poor kid who asked a lot of questions. When I was taken home early on September 11th I went from a lot of crying white people to cheering and music on my street, for some of the hijackers were from Paterson. I still remember how confusing that was. Eventually we moved, and anyone who doesn't know me already would just assume I 'belonged' in my predominately white neighborhood here. If I was anything but white, I couldn't just do that.

...whoa, blacked out for a second, not sure why I wrote all that.

TL:DR- Some black guy shit in my backpack so I fucked his sister, does that make me racist?

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Now that I've diffused pretty much all of your first paragraph by quoting myself (sorry I couldn't correct every mistake you made), allow me explain status quo. Status quo is a matter of perspective. I live in an area that is probably 80%+ Hispanic. Being a white male, I'm sometimes discriminated against. I am apart of the minority. You are telling me that, as a part of the minority, I am the status quo. AND BEFORE YOU GO TALKING ABOUT THE COUNTRY, LET ME RERERERERERECLARIFY SOMETHING.

Status quo is a matter of perspective.

Maybe if I type it bigger, people will get it. I don't care if someone out there does not agree with my definition, because at this point, everyone should know exactly what I mean. I'm not talking about the country as a whole. I'm not talking about the ghetto or some small town in Alabama. I'm talking about my specific situation. Yes, maybe the status quo is white male where you live, but it is not everywhere. Don't come here talking about one status quo, one based entirely off statistics diluted by opinions, and one on such a massive scale it is not only difficult to conceive, but barely relevant.

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I like how you're calling me ignorant, but you don't explain. How am I ignorant? I'm plainly aware racism exists. I'm sorry that I can't be omnipotent in the sense I know all things from all perspectives at one time, but neither can you, and I think I've done a pretty good job with the information I have.

And what is the deal with paragraphs 2 & 3? So everyone is racist and ignorant? What message are you telling me here? I'm sorry I'm too ignorant toward racism to understand.

Nevermind. A misconception on my part. Not entirely relevant to the discussion at.

This post has been edited by Meowth: 02 February 2012 - 10:15 PM

Titanium Dragon, on 28 January 2012 - 02:44 PM, said:

What about the whole lolicon phenomenon?

Also, racism is based on power and uses color as the excuse. White people always have the power. Even if there was some white guy in the heart of Africa, he would hold himself above the black dudes all around him. Even if they didn't grant him power, his ego, arrogance, and self-assertion of power would be enough. No one can be racist against white people because even if you judge them based on color or ethnic group, it's only racism if there is power and oppression involved.

It's about power. Not measured in small pockets. That white guy in a group of black lesbians? it's really a group of lesbians in a white dude society. SEE THE FUCKING BIGGER PICTURE

This post has been edited by Dr. Klaus: 02 February 2012 - 02:59 AM

Dr. Klaus, on 02 February 2012 - 02:56 AM, said:

So what do you call someone who isn't white that says: "I hate white people because they're white and inferior to me."
Is that just "fighting the power?"

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Maybe you should learn to see from more than one picture.

This post has been edited by Meowth: 02 February 2012 - 03:00 AM

Meowth, on 02 February 2012 - 03:00 AM, said:

I would be surprised that you found a substantial group that can believe and propagate that

This post has been edited by Dr. Klaus: 02 February 2012 - 03:31 AM

You're too fucking easy.

Dr. Klaus, on 02 February 2012 - 02:56 AM, said:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgxKfjijWGc&t=11m15s

buildup to 12:00

This post has been edited by Dr. Klaus: 02 February 2012 - 03:32 AM

I don't exactly agree with the video, race is not always the issue, there are myriad factors that go into judging people from both psychological and sociological perspectives along the lines of any sort of physical or mental aspect of someone's perceived 'being'. Humans are programmed to dichotomize. I grew up in a mostly white school yet I was treated this way by certain teachers and administrators who would turn the other cheek when their favorite students did something bad. I was often the only person to be punished when me and my friends would pull a prank or something. Yeah sure there was no outright 'you are inferior' thing, but all my teachers were informed I had ADHD combined type, so maybe that served to alter perceptions of me.

It's because I'm a ginger I fucking swear.

Lol @ the girl trying to use a disorder as a defense. The only way to rise above an emotional disorder is to learn how to fucking cope as any other person without a disorder. If she wants to be protected because of some emotional disorder, she's going to continue her life being a slave to it and never learning to cope.

Granted, Elliott uses manipulation to fight manipulation. The question to be asked is, can you really do that? is it right to fight fire with fire? This question works within the boundaries that there exists such a thing as right or wrong.

CaptainBaconMan, on 02 February 2012 - 03:36 AM, said:

This is precisely true. What Elliott, I think, is trying to do, is reverse the programming. Specifically targeting racism. I'm not saying there's not other factors. But in these experiments, racism is the key element. And many of the ideas and concepts surrounding racism are easily translateable to other forms of prejudice and discrimination. Don't dismiss it, because the lessons to be learned are shared.

This post has been edited by Dr. Klaus: 02 February 2012 - 03:46 AM

Dr. Klaus, on 02 February 2012 - 02:56 AM, said:

Wow. You've probably never actually been to an area in which you weren't "the majority". Coming from a mainly minority area, and currently residing in a mixed neighborhood, I can say I've seen and experienced racism and the like. Recently, a group of blacks did a series of assault on white pedestrians. Is that not racist? Yes, it is. Said offenders have little power in the "bigger picture", but that in no way justifies the crime, nor does it make it any less racist. There are many situations in which the common majority become the minority, and are discriminated against. Overlooking these "small pockets" is how a large pocket is created. Discrimination in any amount or situation is discrimination. And white men have power? Then why don't I have a big house, lots of cash, and the front seat to Congressional lobbying? Using a white man in power to represent all whites is just as bad as using Al Sharpton to represent all blacks.

I see no problem with being overely harsh, you gotta do what you gotta do. I don't think using kid gloves for this would really help. People get that kind of information through there whole life so why would it help now?

As for the current debate on whether white people can be discriminated against. ya it happens it is illogical to assume people don't have irrational hate toward one specific group.

Do people still talk about male gender bias? I care more about it in situations in divorce where the mother almost always gets the children and alimony because that is just stupid. I rarely see it mentioned so I have to assume no one cares.

This post has been edited by Rawrdinosaur: 02 February 2012 - 04:34 AM

Dr. Klaus, on 02 February 2012 - 03:31 AM, said:

What is your point? This would be relevant if someone was denying racism. So far the only racism denied has been that which was toward white people, because of some ridiculous idea that they cannot be discriminated against and they cannot be a minority.

They can be discriminated against and they can be a minority, but you'd be hard pressed to see where they're discriminated against as being inferior. Most racism towards whites is hatred due to their power or their projected arrogance and ignorance. White males have it good, and you're looking for little pockets where they don't and claiming that's proof that other ethnicity are blowing things out or proportion or...something. What ARE you saying?

Bourbon, on 02 February 2012 - 09:32 PM, said:

I personally believe the most common form of racism is generalizing. As in, "I was treated badly by {race, political party, gender, age...}; they must all be bad." That alone is fallacy. If you have a problem with someone, have a problem with the individual. Racism against all Whites is typically no more or less validated than racism against Blacks or Hispanics. And what difference does it make if it is a matter of "inferiority?" It is still racism.

It is being blown out of proportion. Typically by extremists, like you, who are putting words into my mouth. I have already said I recognize racism. I know it is a problem. I know white people discriminate; I never said they didn't. My original point was that this video completely ignored that ANYONE can discriminate, acting as if it was irrelevant, DESPITE the fact that this video talked on a grand scale - as can be observed by its references to sexism and ageism. She needs to be through. People need to understand that racism isn't something exclusively practiced by white people; they can be victims as well. It happens, more than you may think.

There was also a lot of arguing on my definition of a status quo. For some reason people were unable to except that geography can change things. Not all places are the same.

I think the error here is our personal definitions of racism. For myself (and I won't speak for Bourbon), racism is a two-part system. It is people with power discriminating against others based on race. It is a couplet of race AND power.

Meowth, from what I understand, does not have the power bit in his definition. If that is incorrect, then either I have failed to understand you or you have been unsuccessful at communicating your point. Maybe both.

Coincidentally, I just talked about this with Kaxbe, and that is exactly the problem. Turns out by my definition I was right, but once you add power into it, it changes things, which completely explains why we disagreed in the first place.

It also explains why a global status quo was the only relevant one to the people who were arguing with me.

Haha, see it all makes sense now. And by your definition, you're completely right.

Meowth, I think the point of this video and this experiment is that it's not blown out of proportion. I'm not an extremist, I'm actually the type to call someone out if they're crying racism when it isn't so. But remember what generation Elliot grew up in, and even if it's improved in leaps and bounds racism is still big in a lot of ways. Not just with white people, everywhere. Think Apartheid. She's only making the point that race isn't something you can hide or run away from, and whether or not you see it, it IS the most prevalent way of judging others. If she broadened it to 'oh well there are times white people are treated unfairly too and then we have gay people and political views and blah blah blah' it just muddles her original point and nobody learns shit because everyone thinks the oppression is equal across the board.

This post has been edited by Bourbon: 03 February 2012 - 12:07 AM