Bittersweet Candy Bowl Forums

I realized my points about Mike's attitude won't say that much if they are based on future events. I'm going to try a quick summary: Mike has never really felt loved by Lucy, accepting the idea she doesn't like him that way. This call took place during the time Mike stopped wearing his original scarf, but it didn't change his attitude toward Lucy back then. When Mike snapped on Abbey, he explained there was nothing between them, that Lucy simply was dependent on him.

Mike who's being codependent, is understandably frustrated with having feelings for someone who is merely using him.

This post has been edited by Viking: 16 November 2012 - 11:18 AM

I say they both loved one another but one was playing hard to get and one had little patience. Those to personalities dont go together very well. Sandy owes paulo a big thank you which im sure mike will enjoy

This post has been edited by bluefox: 16 November 2012 - 07:37 PM

Lucy has always had feelings for Mike and still has. Just too bad for her when she realized her decade of counter-dependent behaviors was tearing their friendship, it was practically too late.

I also thinks Sandy would cry if she was to witness this.

I like Paulo but nothing he does so far really matches Mike's best moments. He steals the spotlight anywhere he goes, and I honestly wish all the shiptease between Mike and Lucy were replaced with him. Overall, I like Paulo better as a character.

Lucy needs to stop being dishonest, and just.. Tell him how she feels. She's been in love with Michael for like, what? 6-7 years? It's going to be interesting to see how this story evolves, and drama unfolds. Go LucyXMichael!

I can't wait to see what happens when she finally confesses to Mike!

Viking, on 16 November 2012 - 09:19 PM, said:

She can cry all she whants wen she thanks paulo for saving him so she has someone to cry about

This post has been edited by bluefox: 17 November 2012 - 04:40 AM

When Paulo pushed Mike into that game, he had himself a partial responsibility for the accident. In my opinion it doesn't entitles him a hero for rescuing him, it rather saves him from being a general douche. However, David's failed attempt at rescuing Mike is what caused the accident to escalate. If Lucy thinks Mike deserved a slap for almost dying, then Paulo (he still deserves a hug for saving her life though) and especially David should get one extra hard. She should then have told Paulo to never steal her job (competing with Mike) and David to never try rescue Mike again.


But there is one time Paulo really had a share in putting Mike's life in danger. Remember when he and David made that stone bridge collapse? He did seem pretty apathetic over Mike's apparent death, despite his rather heroic rescue of Lucy. Lucy being a crybaby, of course has to put the load of this incident over Mike. She doesn't care at all about lecturing David and Paulo's stupidity, instead Paulo really is stealing the spotlight.

That they got cornered in that valley was indeed Mike's Fault. He better be more careful next time when a stranger offers him candy.

Like Mike, Lucy is about equal when it comes to protecting the ones she cares about, just that her reasoning tends to be much more aggressive and less rational. If it wasn't for Lucy risking her life, Mike would have lost his $80.

Still, those muggers was really kind compared to how nasty street robbers can be. Alejandro did let Lucy go, despite she just gave him a knee in the groin. However, when he ran out of patient, he performed a lethal chokehold on her. Fortunately wasn't Mike ready to give up yet. He got his act together and proceeded to slam Alejandro's face onto the ground. Then Mike and Lucy went total bros and kicked the shit out of that street thug. It's an excellent demonstration of this duo's united capacity in time of crisis; they are practically an unstoppable synergy.

I remember being dissatisfied with how LOOK AT THE CLEVER WAY WE ARE AVOIDING EXPLICIT EXPOSITION the "who has a barking phobia?" panel seems, but Veronica (quite rightly) insisted that it's needed to get the new reader up to date and my attempts to obscure the meaning were making things worse.

(Seriously who has a barking phobia) might be my new favorite line of the whole comic. And it is nice to see Lucy finally outright acknowledging the Confrontation arc since I feel like we haven't heard about it since that chapter. (Now whack wacko prove me wrong in 3.2.1.)

Suitcase learns to trust Taeshi's growth as a writer.

Me, I have never ever ever enjoyed arcs designed to catch the new reader up to date.

And now I do.

What are you doing to me.

SuitCase corrects me for using dissatisfied and then he uses it here what's yo name son

Jerk, on 19 November 2012 - 07:19 PM, said:

Make them read the whole thing for advertising money and to weed out the posers and quitters that don't want to put in the effort to read.

Well it does help bring in new people easier.

Seppucrow, on 19 November 2012 - 09:56 PM, said:

You're getting confused with disinterested

Alejandro was a scumbag.

I just miss cliffhangers ;p

And Taeshi reminds us that "Confrontation" is still relevant to the story (and that Alejandro is still a loose end, that is if the first page of "Moving On" doesn't get removed).

Sorry for my absence, I've been busy lately. Although it hasn't helped that this is now the 14th week of BCB updates without advancing the plotline one bit. I feel that Taeshi and SuitCase have likely lost some readers who didn't want to wait around that long for the story to advance, when it was already slow enough to begin with due to all the drama. On the one hand, I realize this did provide time for a ton of work to be done behind the scenes, including the Kickstarter campaign, edits and new material for Volume Two and "Ask Roseville High", printing the books, ordering new merchandise, working on the Kickstarter rewards, starting up "Not Enough Rings" again, etc. On the other hand, most readers come back for the comic itself, which has more or less remained in stasis for three months now. I guess it's a good thing then that there's only one more week left of "Starting Over". I feel that chapter should probably have been left for the book and then inserted in the archive for new readers, so as to keep the comic progressing after a three-week break, but obviously it's far too late to complain about that now. Although I did feel this way after the first week of "Starting Over"; perhaps I should have said something then.

So yeah. Can't wait for Chapter 73: Cat Calamity (or whatever the title is now). Hopefully I'll be less busy by then, and can get back to the speculating.

As I've stated multiple times, it's either a hiatus, or Starting Over. Make your choice.

I learned from a young age that people who were picky about their food often went hungry~~~

When I read through BCB for the first time, I timed a precise landing on the final page of "Just Beautiful". I certainly craved for more, but as time has passed, it feels like I needed that amount of time in order to process all the drama and sadness. I thinks it will help making Chapter 73 even more satisfying. Could it be the start of a new arc? Previously being much about Lucy's desperation as she reaches her emotional limits, I thinks there isn't so much more angst to explore when she'd hit the rock bottom. A conjecture is that one feature will be about Lucy establishing a basic emotional independence.





Lucy might be onto something... Drunken Mike and crying Lucy really are a OTP!

I finds the end of the first chapter in "Confrontation" pretty amusing. I guess it's basically about Lucy is burden by the guilt of dependency while also housing strong feelings for Mike. I can understand that she somehow really wanted to repay Mike for all those years he was there for her, but I honestly thinks that kiss was more of an emotional punishment rather than a reward for him. Lucy didn't intend it purely as a repayment though, it was also a coverup for her feelings. Unfortunately for her, those memories will return to haunt her when not even her denial can shield her emotional frustration anymore.

SuitCase, on 20 November 2012 - 12:05 AM, said:

No you've explicitly corrected me when I said I was dissatisfied with the state of the fan community when I was being a whiny penis.

P.S. I really am starting to like this chapter a lot I give you a thumbs up for your use of the unreliable narrator.

"It wouldn't surprise me if it all happened again."

It's hard to tell when she's being genre savvy or just being a bitch.

Taeshi said:

I realize that you made a commitment of doing a lot of work in a relatively short period of time once you began the Kickstarter fundraiser. So yes, I suppose the comic had to go on hiatus to accomplish all the things necessary. And we're lucky to be getting something instead of nothing during that period of time. Granted, you must admit that some of that extra time is due to certain choices which you made. For example, you decided to go to the trouble of getting rid of all the fan characters in Volume Two except for Tess and McCain, which was something I never expected you to do, nor felt was really necessary. After all, Volume Two is still a continuation of Volume One, and the backstory of Volume One is still relevant, even though it kind of seemed like you wanted to make a new start with Volume Two, which was even reflected in the title ("Starting Over"). Though I do realize that BCB is now over 1,000 pages, and you probably want to focus on the better, more recent pages by providing a summary chapter for new readers so they can skip the older and crappier (yet still hilarious) stuff.

I wonder, though, if you are going to go on a similar three-month hiatus when it comes time to do the third book? Though by that time, you won't have many fan characters left to deal with, and the artwork should be better, thus necessitating fewer edits. And you'll have the experience accumulated from putting out two previous books. Also, you can plan ahead by getting the proofreading of the existing chapters done in advance.

This is not to say that you should be discouraged by any criticism I give you, though. You are still doing wonderful things! For example, I really liked the way the current page ended with Lucy kissing Mike, it pretty clearly shows the reader how she really feels about him. And I've loved some of the new comics you've done for "Ask Roseville High" (Chris is totes adorbs). And I see that you've actually completed all the comics for "Not Enough Rings". You've definitely put in a lot of work and accomplished a lot, and for that, you should be proud. And yeah, it's quite possible that I complain too much sometimes. Sorry about that!

Sky_Paladin said:

Oh man I was so picky with my food as a kid. I still kinda am! I even wrote up a boring post about it.

Seppucrow, on 21 November 2012 - 05:56 PM, said:

I have no memory of looking up the difference between dissatisfied and unsatisfied. I am pretty sure I'd never rule out the use of dissatisfied as a non-word, seeing as it is a word.

Either way, it sounds like you used it correctly, just as I used it correctly above, though this was just my intuitive sense working. Maybe once I or somebody else criticised you for saying "I am unsatisfied with this product", because it seems unsatisfied is used for technical applications of the word ("was the contractual requirement left unsatisfied?")

Seppucrow, on 21 November 2012 - 05:56 PM, said:

Praise Vero for that, it was her idea. I was actually a little uneasy about the Lucy monologue when she explained it to me, and I remain of two minds about it.

I originally wanted Jessica and Rachel to talk to all the main characters, including Lucy, but Veronica blew up what could have been a short "I don't like him or anything" conversation into a gutsier giant multi-page tsundere breakdown.

wacko, on 22 November 2012 - 12:42 AM, said:

This was not a lot of work at all. Veronica went through each page one by one doing artwork cleanup, and a small part of that process was "delete most fancharacters". There are like five pages total she edited fancharacters out of, and only one or two places required anything more than erasing lineart and colouring. The proofreading/cleanup process was multiple weeks of work for me and about a week of work for Veronica, but only a small fraction of that was devoted to fancharacter cleansing.

The reason it's fair to say we'd have to put the comic on hiatus were outlined in the most recent Kickstarter update. Mother's Day took two weeks or so, and Starting Over took a month and a half. I wasn't clear about why they "took a long time to draw" in that post, but it was a combination of that many pages being relatively laborious to put out and persistent mood\motivation problems.

wacko, on 22 November 2012 - 12:42 AM, said:

This is all true. Unless we come up with some grand idea better than "do a one-page story summary and some kind of bonus chapter at the end", Volume 3 will be a hell of a lot easier to turn out than either of the first books were. There is always a proofreading and art tweaking process, but by Volume 3 I was paying close attention to dialogue and the art was no longer as wonky or variable. But again, fancharacters aren't a big part of it.

The only reason BCB will ever slip from every M-W-F updates is if I give up on that idea. Veronica has taken my word for the importance of regular updates (and has occasionally been put in really stressful positions because of it) but I'm not sure if it pays off anymore.

I don't know. One of the things I take pride in about it is its devotion to updates, but I realize that it's got to take a backseat to life and stress and shit. Damned if I don't know a lot of webcomic artists who just up and disappear for a few months just because they forgot they even have a webcomic. It's not just the dedication, you know? It's the courtesy. If she takes a break, I really doubt she ever stops thinking about her fans.

The good ones. Not the front page ones. They all have autism.

Taeshi is just too lavish with the bonus things maybe? Many authors don't share commissions and pretty gift art right away, but keep that kind of things and guest comics as fillers for when they have a vacation or are otherwise busy. I deeply appreciate the regular updates, but I wouldn't mind if you resorted to that kind of intermission from time to time, especially if I knew that helps to loosen the pressure.

SuitCase said:

I'm glad that it wasn't too much work for Taeshi to alter the artwork so as to eliminate the fan characters. Though I'm not sure where you got the count of five or so pages; by my count, there are a minimum of 15 pages containing at least one fan character other than Tess and McCain in chapters 48-60 inclusive. It's true that some of these appearances are only cameos, but still, even cameos might require new characters to be designed and inserted in their place. That was why I thought it would take some effort to actually remove all the fan characters from Volume Two as you suggested would be done. But if that didn't actually take too much time at all, then great.

As for having regular updates: I like them. Regular updates are a big part of what keep me coming back to a comic. I know that I can always come back x times a week to get my fix, instead of having to check every so often to see whether the comic's been updated. And regardless of how I may feel about the current story not moving forward, I'm glad that you at least had something to put up during the hiatus.

Seems kinda sucky to call it a hiatus given how much work went into keeping updates going.

Was that deliberate, though? That is to say, was it always your intention to post "Starting Over" while you got other things done?

So Lucy's mind didn't turn into a void after she made her confession? I had the belief she would be unable to form any thoughts, being too occupied with her self-pitying because of Mike's rejection.

I don't really get the point of having a hiatus. Does it in practice means that "Starting Over" would later be uploaded as a complete chunk? Or would it become exclusive to the book? It may not be a continuation of the BCB story line, but it still requires effort to complete it. I would personally not pass on this intermission being utilized for "filling the gap", instead of having a period of nothing.

I can't fully remember. It would have been ideal to go on with the story but it became quickly apparent around August that going on with a new chapter would mean weeks\months of delay for the book, and we were (and are?) kinda low on money, so that Kickstarter had to happen ASAP.

In the past we posted like 12 pages of new stuff all at once (with the Vol One replacement comics) and it was hard to figure out if anyone read it. This time we've tried to get a better value out of it. These comics were all to go online at some point anyway.

Yes, I believe you mentioned that "Starting Over" was eventually slated to be inserted in the archives just before "Pick Me Up", as an introductory point for new readers. Since the chapter was planned anyway, I'm glad that you found it convenient to post it (as opposed to having no updates at all).

As for the current page: perhaps Lucy should give thanks for Mike. She did thank Mike for what he'd done, but just that once. Following Acapulco, she actually showed more gratitude to Paulo than she did to Mike. Then again, Paulo continued to be there for her, while Mike distanced himself from her. Still, if Lucy had been nicer and more grateful to Mike a lot more and a lot earlier, things might be quite different now.

This post has been edited by wacko: 23 November 2012 - 09:55 PM

It's ironic how Lucy's phobia forced Mike to put himself into a life threatening situation. She could indeed at least given him a proper thanks. An apology would be a bonus, but that's seemingly too much asked from her. The possible first time in her life she was going to say sorry was when she realized her past cruelty. But it was too late for that when she also learned how much she had hurt Mike because of her unreciprocated friendship.

I guess one apology couldn't begin to make up for the years of abuse and clinginess Mike endured with Lucy. And by that time, he was already drifting away from her.

Paulo, though. He supported Lucy as well, especially when she was really down. And he was able to put up with her tsundere tantrums a lot better.

I just can't stop thinking that Lucy is the one being immature here.

Fortunately, I think after the events of "December", Lucy will grow up. Having realized what she did wrong, I think she'll try to be nicer and make more connections with her other friends so that she's not so dependent on any one person. She may become especially close with Paulo, since he's shown that he's supportive of her.

Mike will probably take rather longer to get over his grudge and mature. I wouldn't be surprised if he initially thinks that Lucy is merely transferring her dependency onto Paulo.

wacko, on 26 November 2012 - 03:57 PM, said:

Might just be me, but he's been like that for quite a while now.

No, you're right. He thought the same thing about Lucy and Augustus a month previously.

In my opinion wasn't that so called apology Lucy did in "Pick Me Up" so much of an apology. It was more like "why should you be sorry?", followed by a rather shallow "thanks for everything".

Paulo has indeed been a great support for Lucy and they quickly became really good friends. Yet, Lucy had to be a possessive bitch over Paulo in "Back and Forth", despite what he did for her. Fortunately was Jasmine there to save the day by preventing Lucy from clinging anymore on Paulo. Otherwise could the timeline have possibly turned out identical with "Another Path", with the exceptions of Lucy still being be a virgin and Paulo not attempting to get his way with her.

I also thinks Lucy got the message in "December". It is the start of a major turning point in Lucy's mindset now her understanding of others feelings has advanced. Beyond Paulo, I thinks she's really lucky to still have friends that cares about her.

It might be possible for Mike to recover quite quickly from most of his grudge. As if it wasn't enough to help him break free from his toxic relationship, Sandy was also so awesome to provide Mike some guidance. At the first attempt to talk it out with her, he was grumpy. But upon leaving he looked rather guilty. Along with seeing her pets was affected by the impact, he might have considered the message she sent to Sandy might possibly been sincere. I'm sure Mike will be giving what Sandy said some careful considerations. It's hard to predict how their next interaction will be, but I thinks it's necessarily not about directly restoring a friendship. I could imagine one element would be about Mike telling Lucy "how to be better" in an act to boost her self-confidence. If they would not be together for a while, I would understand that. Lucy getting used to be without Mike while not using an alter crutch (I.E. Paulo) should help her gaining a better emotional responsibility.

I kind of want to cut out the two Lucy reaction shots for a "Surprise! Miscarriage!" avatar.

Viking said:

Well, Lucy did say "I'm sorry" in panel 9. But yes, it was more an apology specifically for provoking Mike into an argument earlier in the chapter. Lucy would have still needed to apologize for everything else she'd done to Mike in the past, hence my comment that one apology wasn't enough to patch things over.

Viking said:

I don't know about that. We know that Mike is capable of holding a grudge. After all, he was about to walk away from Lucy's house instead of talking to her. The only reason he even went that far was because he'd promised Sandy he'd talk to Lucy.

Additionally, with Lily telling Mike to leave, that would seem to be a not-so-subtle indicator that he ought to leave Lucy alone for a while, since she's not ready to face him again just yet (and Lily knows it). So at the moment, it seems that neither Mike nor Lucy is ready or willing to have an open conversation with each other, at least not just yet. Perhaps Mike will eventually follow through on his promise and chat with Lucy in a month or two... if they've both gotten over "December" by that point, and if other complications don't arise first.

Viking said:

Actually I think it'd be better if Mike didn't dictate to Lucy how to be a better person. Lucy already knows what she did wrong, and the onus is now on her to demonstrate that she's learned from this incident and made the necessary adjustments to become a better person. Only then can she slowly begin to earn back Mike's friendship.

This post has been edited by wacko: 28 November 2012 - 12:11 AM

Oh dear, so Lucy actually noticed Mike's attitude had changed? If she didn't take him for granted and cared to ask about his feelings, maybe she wouldn't have to find them out the hard way.

wacko said:

I agrees on Mike ability to hold a grudge and that he certainly wasn't in the right mind to talk to Lucy. Lily certainly must known something happened as they had stopped hanging out. Seeing Lucy hiding from an uncontent Mike must certainly been a good reason to deny any interaction between them. Supporting Lucy is certainly quite some work for Lily, but she managed to get her out for some activities, which was a good start. It was bad timing for having Mike appearing, but I thinks he really needed to witness the scene. It will not cleanse his grudges, but it could indicate Sandy's words might be starting to actually click in his head. It will still take time though, and the school play awkwardly gets in the middle of this.

wacko said:

Good point. I based my statement on that Paulo and Mike are really the only persons at the moment she really cares to listen to. But yet again it's so true Lucy should work her own feelings out, as that's the point of becoming better (as opposed to finding another shoulder to cry on). She limited the amount of time with Paulo over the phone, so she might truly be maturing and now is avoiding to redo any of her former mistakes. Understandably is her motivation very personal, considering what her issues did to her beloved best friend.

Jerk said:

HOLYCRAP THAT'S A GREAT IDEA!!

Poor Lucy gained Mike back, but lost him at the same time.

Bonus points for accurate positioning: Mike and Lucy were indeed on opposite sides of the fire.

Because the first thing out of her mouth when they're alone, after he nearly died for her sake, was something completely bitchy! Of course she fucking lost him. That look wasn't in his eyes until she started her shit again, and the whole "I'm so codependent I can't keep my sanity without you" is just gravy since she's been doing roughly the same thing for years. And that's kind of the point: this tsundere shit is not conducive to healthy relationships the way manga would make you think it does. It's a comic about cat/dog people who have more realistic emotional problems and reactions than any comic that is even remotely manga-based. There's no "AWWW THEY REALLY LOVE EACH OTHER" shit. All that infighting is just acid on any relationship and the more self-respect Mike gets the less he puts up with it.

Ah, the mental conflict. For all the times Mike has crawled back to Lucy after a fight (or her returning to him without Mike minding it) must mean Mike loves Lucy to death, right? Well, it was a huge blow for Lucy to learn that someone hundred of miles away could actually mean more to him than she could. As her confession didn't have it her way, the quest for a solution went on.

I also agrees with Jerk on that Lucy's tsundere attitude is a recipe for a toxic relationship that nobody should deserve to deal with. Not even Paulo who personally romanticizes it deserves that, no matter how much his hormones say otherwise. It's a mental illness that needs treatment and not to have someone sacrifice oneself to sustain it. Lucy pretends to be independent with a ungenerous counter-dependent behavior. That seriously gets on Mike's case when he also has to deal with her emotional hysteria involving her dependency on him. While I thinks Mike made it perfectly clear for Lucy what he thought of her counter-dependent act, she didn't really change. When her dependency got the best of her, she had to repeat it over and over and over and over again. If Lucy instead had grown up, she would have become a real temptation for Mike, giving the possibly best chance of fulfilling her desire that lies beyond a swamp of dependency. Just too bad for the BCB cast that there is no such magic.

WRONG. Who needs a codependent tsundere when you have an Asian supermodel girlfriend?

And you wonder why I keep asking you about your mom?

You sure love those MILFs, don't you?

Jerk said:

That is certainly true now. However, if Lucy had never become dependent upon or abusive to Mike, there would've been a very real chance of those two ending up together. After all, Sandy was far away, her letters were getting less frequent, and Mike was beginning to lose hope, whereas Lucy would've been right there for him.

(And in the next few chapters of Volume Two, Lucy gets to find out that she was wrong about Mike always coming back for her, although the sad saga doesn't truly conclude until "December".)