Bittersweet Candy Bowl Forums

Augustus for president, because he's got big plans for the school. Oh yesh, very big plans

Starwatcher, on 15 December 2010 - 07:44 PM, said:

BWAHAHAHAHA Write an essay on how they were wrong? That's brilliant.

Believe me, they know EXACTLY what they are doing, and it isn't pointless to them, they get off on it. They know what they do is wrong but do it anyway because they enjoy it, duh. I once had someone be an asshole to me over a long period of time with multiple suspensions. It wasn't until our conflicts got physical that the guy was finally expelled. Problem solved.

Maybe i'm a little biased, I support corporal punishment, or atleast for truancy officers (Staff that find kids bunking lessons in school time and causing trouble) to freaking be aloud to defend themselves when they get sharp heavy objects thrown at them. >.> If you do not wish to learn, or if you are ruining another persons school life, then you do not deserve to be apart of the education system. >:C

Oh, the humanity ^_^

Really, Abbey's position is understandable. An expulsion works well on bullies in my experience, while steps like "talk to them to let them see what they do wrong" does not work because they see that they get no real repercussion for their actions. They need to see that those actions will not do them any good in the long run, and then it will not do to tell them that they are wrong. This is not to say that they are especially dim, hard-headed or inhuman, but it is a general rule for all social interaction - punishment for misdeeds and reward for good ones is what we all learn by. For instance, it is easier for people to stop smoking if none of their peers do, because then they are put in a socially awkward situation. Or take life on the Internet - it is generally accepted as a fact that people do not become "good forumites" unless they are flamed out of their newbiehood. I dislike that, but it is true. ^_^

Now, since a social group such as a classroom will always have positive enforcement for mockery (no one of them would like to be put on the wrong side of the fence, and so they stand by those that bully out of fear that they will be bullied for opposing them), the punishment will have to come from authority figures. Most pupils in high school age hate authority figures, that is true, but if a rule of castigation is enforced on them they will accept it. You might draw parallels between this and the regime of a bully, and that comparison will have a lot of truth to it. However, when there are different levels of authority such measurements are often required - take, for instance, that it is considered a worse crime to assault a policeman on duty than it is to attack a random person on the street, or the fact that higher legal instances can suggest or pass laws, while no group of men from the street can do the same, or also that parents exert control over their children. There is only a formal difference between this and a school, because parents who send their kids to school give the school legal authority over and responsibility for them as long as they are on their grounds.

I am not at all suggesting mirrored punishment, or corporeal punishment, but expulsion or - in worse cases - physical labour does have an effect. The ones who suffer this repayment are set apart from their peers in a negative way, and their teachers deprive them of social contact (the most important to anybody at that age). Sometimes it works against the intention, and the bully gathers even more respect from the others, but often it will give them such a bad experience that they keep their hectoring to a minimum. And if not, it will keep them away from their victims for a while. That is where the main focus should be: on the protection of those who suffer.

Let me give you an example. A recent piece of news here was that one pupil (this was, in fact, a few years before high school) had been repeatedly bullied, beaten and threatened by two of his classmates. The cruncher (excuse the expression) came when they actually threatened him on his life, then proceeded to beat him and put a knife to his throat. At that exact point, a teacher entered through the door and stopped the assault. The administration at the school said they had talked to the assailants on several occasions, but it had clearly not had an effect - while this is an extreme case, it tells us that a mere stern talking to does not have the effect that some may believe. I know this also from personal experience - if a bully experiences no corrective punishment, he or she will keep it up until they do (and sometimes even longer).

The most desirable deterrent, of course, would be to make their peers stand up to them. We cannot expect this from them, though; the social ladder is too hard to climb, and one sidestep such as reacting negatively towards the wrong thing or person can throw them to the bottom of it. Turning the whole thing around (making all of them attack the bully) is not a good solution, since this would just give them a new pecking order rather than to absolve it. A completely equal class is unattainable, and regrettably all of them require some resident "cool" persons and some "uncool" ones. It is how human society works.

Oh, and Gabriel - I am unsure of whether you know this, but your post is so ironic that I cannot help but smile at it. ^_^

I didn't know you smiled at my ironic post.

Junior Boomer, on 15 December 2010 - 10:25 PM, said:

His little notebook is the manifesto of his new political philosophy. Sounds legit!

Fine. So how low does the number that learn have to be before it's a pointless endeavor? I never said no punishment, actually, I think punishment and rehabilitation would go well together here. My point is that if you save 10 people, the program is worthwhile. What does it cost? Time. What does it give? SOME people become better human beings. What about the ones who don't understand? They get punished and quickly expelled.

Anialator, on 15 December 2010 - 10:26 PM, said:

Have you BEEN every one of these people? How do you know for sure that there's no hope? Sure, I grant that your example sounds hopeless. Fine. But people aren't just black and white, there are lots of shades of grey too. If we acknowledge this and try to fix them, then we make society a better place. If it doesn't work and they end up getting expelled anyway, all it cost was some time.

Was it really "Problem Solved" in your case? It was problem solved for YOU, but he wound up somewhere else after that.

I don't want to see prisons fill up with the ones that could be changed. Unless you're prepared to deny any underlying humanity in these people, to claim that we can't ever reach them, no matter what, then we've got to at least TRY!

In case I didn't state my choice clearly enough.

Edit: Oh this isn't meant as a 1st offense instant life fuck, the guy had two opportunities before hand to change his ways and he chose not to, and for this reason I am glad that I put a dent in any future opportunities in his life. (lawl GBH don't look good on yo record) When I say problem solved, it should always be solved for the victim first, and the bully second, If thing's get worse for the bully then too bad.

The stricter sentence for their behavior would undoubtedly cause many expulsions in the first year of being in action, however it should soon stop bullying out of fear of their lives being ruined by not getting an education.

Also, prisoners for extreme cases should become slaves, so as to help pay for the system which keeps them incarcerated.

This post has been edited by Anialator: 15 December 2010 - 11:03 PM

Your sense of justice is terrifying to me. Wouldn't it be better to have them stop being bad by WANTING to stop than to have them only stop out of fear?

Yeah, most are going to go the second way. fine. whatever. For the 1/10 or so that has a hope, let's fix them. Who knows? Perhaps they'll be more good to society that way.

The only people who will stop bullying are the ones doing it to follow the croud, and I'd hardly feel their form of bullying even counts. (The occasional nick name, a poorly made insult ect.) Once the main person (or people) has been removed the rest just stop.

My sense of justice terrifies you? Some peoples sense of humanity terrifies me.

This post has been edited by Anialator: 15 December 2010 - 11:20 PM

None of your cheek, Gabriel. I put it that way for a reason. ^_^

My sense of humanity being that we can't instantly assume that someone's gone for good, fracked for their entire life, always bad etc for ONE foulup?

Yeah, sure.

Besides, how do you know that they're all lost causes anyway? I don't know that any of them are salvageable, but it's your assumption that they're all hopeless that causes harm. At worst, mine is a waste of resources.

I can't really say at this point, I don't really feel like I know enough about either side. We'll see how it goes.

Vote for sue bitches.

i know someone will come along, pick up lucy and say something like "a vote for non important person is a vote for LUCY" and everyone will vote for uh bitch cause BAM! IM STILL WEARING THIS PLAID SHIRT!

Are you commenting on mine, Watcher? Because I do not have the opinion that you comment on.

I with Starwatcher on this.
and

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I, for one, would hardly call that justice >_<
That's because everyone makes choices based on their own view of society and life.

If I don't know about a person's entire life (and no matter how much one study 'other's life, it's impossible to know what that 'other' feels about it) I don't think its fair to just go and punish excessively.

And not slaves, Anialator, slavery is a lot under human condition. 'Forced to work' would be more like it ^_^

rocketpony, on 15 December 2010 - 10:20 PM, said:

GASP!

...
I can think of sooooooooooooooo many more votes for Sue now... Vote for Sue cause she manipulates for a creative and interesting plot that leads to happy orgy endings. A vote for Abbey is a vote for abstinance, boredom, exagerrations, and no interesting story manipulation.

IF YOU WANT IT, VOTE FOR SUE.

ILB, on 16 December 2010 - 12:52 AM, said:

Nope.

Sigh.

To respond to ILB:

My post wasn't meant to imply that there shouldn't be a punishment for bullying. Of course there should be a punishment, as I do believe in consequences and personal responsibility for one’s actions. Certainly in all cases, it needs to be made clear that bullying is not acceptable. My point was that for some people, punishment alone might not be nearly as effective as offering a means of change in addition to the punishment.

I also have issues with the one-size-fits-all hard line that Abbey took, automatically wanting to expel all bullies. This reaction is understandable for him, considering the situations he endured during his childhood. However, it often proves all too easy for someone in power to simply lay down a severe, unrelenting punishment rather than to actually solve the problem. All right, so let’s say a student who bullies gets expelled from school. What happens then? That student then becomes a problem for some other school. This is merely a form of passing the buck without making any effort to change the person involved.

So what is a proper punishment for bullying, you might ask? I think it would depend on the situation, and how badly the victim was bullied. The punishment should be proportionate to the offence. For a mild first offence, a warning might do. More severe cases might merit the offender being given a punitive task, such as cleaning the school grounds or serving lunch for a week. A second offence might merit a suspension, however the offender should still be required to complete his school work and whatever punitive tasks are assigned to him. It should certainly not be a ‘vacation’ from school. Finally, in the most severe cases or as a last resort, expulsion can be considered.

However, in all cases an effort should be made not only to punish the bully, but to change his actions. The bully needs to understand how his actions have hurt the victim. Why did he do it? Would he like to be treated in the same manner? Sometimes counselling can help resolve underlying emotional issues or other problems. Sometimes the bully might benefit from a change of scene, whether it be a different classroom or a different school. This can be looked upon as a ‘second chance’ of sorts, a way to get a fresh start.

Really, this is all about whether you believe someone should be given a second chance. And this is actually one of the underlying themes of Bittersweet Candy Bowl: about people getting (or not getting) second chances. It’s sort of ironic that the people most likely to vote for Abbey’s hard line on bullying are the ones who didn’t give Tess a second chance, because these are the same people against whom Abbey defended Tess earlier. “What has been done in the past does not justify your cruel actions in the present... it doesn't matter.” Abbey recognized that Tess had made the genuine effort to change, so why couldn’t others change their opinions as well? Sometimes it takes people a long time to forgive the wrongs done against them. I certainly don’t blame Rachel for that: her brother was severely injured enough by Tess that he could no longer play his favourite sport. And yet, what good does it do to go on hating someone who’s actually made the effort to change? Even worse, what if you simply don't believe they can change? How long do you go on in that state until you can make peace with yourself and with them?

wacko I think we have exactly the same opinion here.

I'll make my decision when I have heard more on the issues on taxes and the economy.

*sits and waits like a politician* aka throwing a tantrum and acting all high and mighty.

Oh, Wacko, I did not make my post in reply to yours. I actually agree with you on the points you make - my point was just to say that if all we do is talk to the bullies, they will ignore it because that only means they lose a few minutes of free time, and it gives them an opportunity to look even cooler in their peers' eyes. Counselling might be a very good option, if you have an able counsellor and put it in conjunction with other types of punishment (such as a suspension, or punitive tasks). I also agree that expulsion should not be the castigation for first offences, neither an easy way out, but a choice that must be made after due consideration of the severity or recurrence of the case. Still, stern talkings to is a bad idea if you want to solve the problem - not even suspension or physical labour during recess will stop bullying completely, but the plan must be to reduce the weight on the victims rather than to think that everything will go well if we just do the right thing. If it did, the prisons would be empty. ^_^

That said, I have - in fact - had the pleasant experience of three years in a class where there was no bullying at all. It was a small boarding school, something that forces everybody to get along. Of course, there were occurrences of mockery and fighting, but it was mostly benevolent in expression and consequence. I would love for all schools to have these situations, but unfortunately it would be impossible unless all of them become boarding schools with less than a hundred attendees at all times.

There is punishing and there is overpunishing.

And moreover, there is punishing without rehabilitation (which could be pointless). I argue for both. Scare the hell out of them, sure, but at the same time, get the ones who can to realize how they're wrong.

Ok i've got a little twist to add. A long while ago one of my friends got bullied by nearly half the school for years (kind of like Tess) but had done absolutley nothing to deserve this abuse. In a case like this, what would you guys suggest?

I like how this has become about our life stories and whatever

At least Abbey doesn't want to be sit thar and pull them strings, like a puppet master, making them dance dance dance.
Also, what power would a secretary really hold anyways? As far as I know, their job is to record minutes, make notices and generally sit there pretending they have a purpose.

None of the positions make any difference. That's why the school's do not implode when people win due to being popular hurrhurr. All they can do is "suggest" things, the head of the school can still do whatever he/she wants regardless.

OK so Abbey is arguing that not using a scorched earth method on bullies will be a slippery slope. Not sure I buy his building analogy... humans aren't just buildings with broken windows, it's more complicated than that.

Besides that, he says that people can just walk into the school and do whatever they want. Thats not the issue at hand, we're talking about school bullies here.

I'm voting for Sue.

Kaxbe, on 15 December 2010 - 03:05 PM, said:

Let's help the school system create another failure.

Let's not blame the school system for the parents failing.

However, showing them that they had no power over you did.

With all due respect Kaxbe, that line was nothing more than a sugar coated lie fed to us by those unwilling to offer real help. Fighting back, walking away, laughing along, simply ignoring them, none of that stopped anything. You show me a sure fire way to "rehabilitate" the chronic bully and I'll be happy to concede your point.

Until then, I continue to agree with Abbey.

Jaythefirst, on 17 December 2010 - 06:30 AM, said:

Sure fire? When it comes to humans, there's no way to guarantee anything. Sure, you can have a vast majority, and sometimes even an overwhelming majority, but there's still always going to be that 1% of people that fuck it up for everyone else.

All that having been said, I voted for Abby.
I had some bullies in each school I was in until sophomore year in High School, so my thought process while voting was "Yeah, what do you think of me now, bitches! Explusion!" So yeah, more for personal reasons than for the good of the people. But then again, this is politics! You can't enter without bringing in some of your own personal issues with it.

Hmmm, the vote appears to have narrowed, I agree with Sue, Abbey's policy is out of line. I'd be willing to bet that under the 'expulsion first policy' half those expelled will be either first time offenders or someone falsly accused (keep in mind this is s school, justice is pretty much an higher administrator as judge, jury, and executioner). Throw one of those falsly accused into a continuation school with the true chronic abusers....oh yeah, that's not counter productive at all. One can't be soft on abuse but punishment can't be mindless.

Vote for Sue.

I see the abbeyfags have begun to hijack the vote.

Hey guys, I voted Abby, it's a tie. No one respects leniancy, it's why all of my principles are assholes, people respect their authority.

Kaxbe, on 17 December 2010 - 09:51 AM, said:

Back in real-life-high-school-land, I've noticed an increase in gang recruitment and gang formations during school, last year we had non. Now we have three (and these arent your kiddie gangs either, it's actually pretty scary to be walking from class to class, only to see a group of immigrant students walking down the hall together, taking up the whole hallway as they pass. So I would probably impliment that, into my policies if I were Abbey or Sue. Another problem is the serious budget cuts that have been occurring this year. Mostly because too much funding went into building the new fine arts center (An auditorium much like the one the comic is currently at. Another reason that money is scarce is due to the amount of illegals that live in the area... Wait... I'm not even talking about policies for student council anymore, I'm just listing the problems of the modern day high school.

Oh! And when running for studen council your political posters CANNOT, have any remarks of slander, like the kind of stuff you see on these forums.

About Abbey's speech in today's comic (I've already commented on the page, but no one sees it there )

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes".

To me, Abbey is being the biggest Sith of them all.
Go reasonably logical Sue!

I thought abbey was a rabbit, but turned out he was a cat. that kind of betrayal doesn't go unpunished in my world. vote for sue

dXrandomXb, on 17 December 2010 - 07:00 AM, said:

That was pretty much my point. Since there is no way to correct them, removing them is the only sure fire option left.

Perhaps I should clarify however. I agree with Abbey's end results. However, instant expulsion would be overkill. As was suggested earlier in this thread, three strikes and you're out would work well. Detention, suspension, expulsion. Too bad it rarely gets that far in the real world. It tends to get stuck on the detention step and simply repeat like a broken record.

I might just be paranoid, but I think you might be misunderstanding my words. (if I am just being paranoid, move along, nothing to see here...)
But what I meant was that even though you could put a program into effect, and have pretty much every bully "converted" back into a normal student, there would still always be that one jackass that actually enjoys inflicting pain for no other reason than that they can. And it appears that lots of people would use that one kid as an excuse that the program doesn't work, and there should be immediate consequences.

So I think I'll go for what appears to be the 50/50 around here, three strikes you're out.

Jaythefirst, on 17 December 2010 - 01:33 PM, said:

And how do you know that there's no way to correct them? How many have to be lost causes before we concede that the ones that can be saved don't matter? 30%, 50%, 70%? Unless we can agree on this number, we've gotta go with a 3 strike your out system but LEAVE ROOM for (possible) rehabilitation as well.

You can almost always tell which people can change and which are doomed.

Edit: Hell yes, Abbey has pulled into the lead!

This post has been edited by Anialator: 17 December 2010 - 05:50 PM

Anialator, on 17 December 2010 - 05:43 PM, said:

*Raises hand in air* HIGH FIVE FOR ABBEY!

First assume that the candidates will actually have real power after winning, Abbey policy is crazy (of course keep in mind the alternate is voting for Sue, who wishes to fill every posistion with her puppets, now that I think about it this is just like real life elections)

*Falcon High Five!!*

Honestly if I were at that school i'd be going around handing out "Vote Abbey" leaflets.

Edit: Typo

This post has been edited by Anialator: 17 December 2010 - 06:50 PM

And I would be leading 'Down with the Dictator' protests (bonus points if anyone actually gets what I'm referencing)

(nameless), on 17 December 2010 - 06:47 PM, said:

The song "Down with the Sickness"?

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I disagree with this, and even if you can that does not mean every teacher and headmaster has the same ability. Rehabilitation should always be an option, but the way I see it the victims' protection should be the number one focus, rather than the disgracement of the bully.

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This statement is wrong in so many levels I can't even begin to elaborate a proper answer...

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I agree. One type is an evil motherfucker who lives on despair of weaker students and other type is just some asshole who is bullying because it's cool to do.

This post has been edited by Mister Nikel: 17 December 2010 - 07:35 PM

*hops on the bandwagon*

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Uh, no. You can't. We're freaking humans. We are not simple and easy to figure out at a glance. Or for longer than a glance. You'd need a lot of personal time with someone to even begin to understand their inner workings, but seeing as this is talking about students and teachers, the best they're going to get is slightly longer than a glance.