Bittersweet Candy Bowl Forums

I was reading some articles about this the other day, and I came to realize something. I think that by hating animal suffering, and at the same time eating them for food when I don't have to, I am living a contradiction.

Unless I can resolve this issue - I think that the arguments for are compelling enough for me to become a vegetarian. Even if I can't figure out whether it's right or wrong, wouldn't the safest position be the one that does no harm? Even if I'm wrong then, it hasn't hurt anything.

What do you guys think? I'm not going to be an extremist or anything, I just think that there's a problem here that needs addressed.

Humans cause other animals to suffer by their very existence. So do many plants and indeed animals as well. The world is all connected, in a huge web. Its called the global ecosystem, and humans are part of it, like it or not.

The reality is that what separates us from other animals is intelligence; indeed, this is what separates humans from the rest of the planet. Ultimately, that is what separates us, and the truth is that there is no reason that plants are so much less worthy of protection than animals.

Domesticated animals exist for the convenience of humans; if we weren't going to eat them, they wouldn't exist at all.

We aren't bad for eating animals, and animal suffering is, frankly, not terribly relevant; I'm more worried about wild animals (and other living things) than domesticated ones, given that the latter exist soley at our convenience.

Nothing wrong with eating meat in my oppinion, humans have been doing it since the dawn of their existance so why stop now? Also in the wild animals eat each other all the time, the only real difference is that humans try to give animals a quick and painless death instead of using things like paralysing poison so the victims can be devoured slowly.

Another thought, many animals are bred for the purpose of being eaten, if humans did stop/reduce the comsumption of meat then these animals will never be born in the first place, what is worse? To experience a life and be fed so much that you grow fat but eventually killed after some years, or to never be born, to never experience life at all?

This post has been edited by matty_batty0: 31 December 2010 - 05:50 AM

I think I'm eventually going to become a vegetarian of convenience.
A flex-a-tarian.
Cause when I'm gonna cook for myself, I'd just rather not handle raw meat.
So there you go. Laziness made me a vegetarian.

My answer is no. My reason is best summed up in the words of Dennis Leary:

"Meat tastes like murder and murder tastes pretty damn good."

If you don't eat the meat, us carnivores will pick up the slack and eat the rest for you. Avoiding meat for the sake of the animal is kind of a moot point. There are a lot of animals and a lot of people. Now, if you want to do it for health reasons, then by all means, go ahead.

I love meat, I grew up with it. There are a lot of health benefits, but at the same time, can be hazardous to your health. I believe eating meat isn't necessary, but I choose to do so. The only thing I'm thinking of is consuming less of it, since it's really fatty. GOTTA LOSE DEM POUNDS...and get healthier. While it'd be nice if no animals whatsoever would suffer, that isn't realistic. I agree with a lot of points that have already been said, such as how humans are naturally omnivorous. If you're vegetarian/intending to be one, more power to you.

People always think I'm vegetarian because I eat a lot of vegetarian fare ( veggie patties, tofu, etc.) and rarely cook meat. However... I'm simply inclined to think of there being a great gulf between that which is human and that which is non-human, and furthermore there is plenty of human suffering that needs to be dealt with before we worry about animal suffering. I support laws on animal cruelty for the same reasons many philosophers have decided to - because of its connection to human cruelty. The former encourages the latter, it hardens the (metaphorical) heart to suffering.

Anyway, I feel its rather arbitrary to designate, for example, chordates (includes mammals) as unfit for consumption, but to exclude other species, such as plant life. I mean some do actually take it to the extreme and only consume fruits and seeds and such that are already no longer part of the plant, but this isn't very practical.

But yea if you wanna be a veggie, that fine with me, many of my friends are. I find it cute

This post has been edited by meowwowo: 31 December 2010 - 06:36 AM

Actually eating meat is fine and OK. I mean sure you can think of suffering animals and such, but one reason we eat meat (remember one reason not the main one) is to keep the animal population down, because if it grows too high then there won't be enough food for all of them, and they'll die and go extinct etc etc. That being said also meat isn't actually all that fatty. Just gotta know how to cook it. I make a mean Eggplant Chicken Parmesan that's not too many calories. Really healthy actually.

Some people have mentioned health benefits of being vegetarian, just want to point out that if vegetarianism is not done right then it can lead to some pretty bad health issues, so if you do plan on going veg then you should do some research first for your own sake.

I do agree that it would probably be benificial for most people to reduce the amount of meat that they eat, but not to remove it from their diet entirely, the thing to remember is "all things in moderation".

Also for people worried about animal rights/cruelty, even if you do turn vegetarian then it could be said that you are still contributing to animal suffering since a large amount of products people use on a daily basis contain animal products such as leather, clothing, car tires etc.

This post has been edited by matty_batty0: 31 December 2010 - 08:17 AM

I would probably die of starvation if I became a vegetarian, since I hate veggies :-[

anyway man animals are so much more vicious killing prey it's so stupidly double-standards just because humans have empathy and stuff.

My only comment is if it taste good and I know it won't kill me to eat ill eat it

First of all, don't become a vegetarian because 1. it's a royal pain in the arse to do and keep healthy with, and 2. usually ends up with you becoming massively unhealthy due to not having enough of... various things.

Second, there's a little something called the ecosystem, the food chain, whatever. We're part of it, we eat animals. You feel sorry for animals being abused? Try saying that when a snake is crushing you to death and eating you whole.

Besides, animal suffering =/= killing them for food.
You ever looked in a field and seen a cow being abused? No nor have I. Sheep though, that's a different matter, but you'll have to speak to the Welsh about that one
Go and research how animals are slaughtered if it bothers you, almost always quite humane. Simple because being humane is rather efficient, would make no sense to do it another way.

There are a few exceptions I suppose, battery farming chickens and such, but that's why there's a little thing called "free range"

No need to go vegetarian, y'see? ^^

No just no. People are omnivores no matter what those batshit crazy Vegans will tell you. And Omnivore doesn't mean that we can eat everything it means we HAVE TO eat everything. Meat, vegetables and other stuff to keep us going. The lack of proteins and other important things not only makes us weaker but turns us stupid because our brain starts shriveling up without proper food.

It's natural for peple to eat meat. You may live a couple years more than an average person but this is not worth it. You'll just turn into what you eat. A freaking Vegetable.

That pun is just so bad Mr. Nikel I have to hand it to you hahahahaa

Also I've always kind of rolled my eyes at vegetarians getting upset about people eating meat around them or offering it to them as if NOT eating them will bring the animals back to life? They're kind of already dead, the damage is done. Isn't it kind of a waste not to eat? :U

also yeah you probably have to buy a buncha vitamins and shit to help with whatever vitamins you won't be getting that are generally exclusive to meat.

matty_batty0, on 31 December 2010 - 08:00 AM, said:

Then it's settled!

Seg that picture is going to be my wallpaper on my nook from now on

An airgun to the forehead means that there is no suffering involved. They live an idyllic life up unto the point that they die, and typically aren't even aware that they are going to die for their existence. We have already drastically changed the natural face of the earth and bred animals specifically for our consumption, if we stopped controlling the population now it would be far more inhumane.

But the mallet is just more fun.

Also, I hate pigs. Is there any way we could make them suffer more? I think it would make pork more delicious.

If god did not want us to eat cows, why did he make them taste so good?

There are a couple of really good points made here - I'm still worried about a few things though:

1) Even though becoming a vegetarian (even to a practical extent - I note the medicine / glue / whatever else example) doesn't stop animals from being killed, it will reduce it, right? Couldn't this partial result be viewed as a positive thing?

2) Animals do suffer when slaughtered - I have seen the pictures, and visited the farms. Ultimately, aren't we taking a living thing (which could be fundamentally argued to not want to die) and killing it? Isn't that wrong?

3) I'd do some careful research and probably transition gradually. I know that everything you get from eating meat has a replacement.

I find the die hard vegans annoying as well. It's not like I want to be all militaristic about it, it's just kind of a thing that I think might reduce a small amount of harm.

Besides, even if I'm completely wrong and there's no reason not to eat meat, what harm have I done by avoiding it?

My sisters a Vegetarian, and i respet her for that. she knows not to push it on the rest of the family which is also good.

1) Not particularly. One person won't influence anything that way. If you want to stop/reduce the killing of animals, began working towards getting Americans to stop being so wasteful. There's more meat wasted in a minute than you could eat in a year. Its more of a 'feel good about yourself' thing than actually getting anything done typically.

2) If they do then they're doing it wrong. A snake is taking a living thing and killing it. Is that wrong? Nothing wants to die, its going to end up doing it anyway. The entire argument could be applied to fish and plants as well.

4) The entire 'bodily harm' thing if you don't keep up on your pillz.

I'm not trying to convince you not to do it btw, its your choice after all. I'm just providing the other side of the argument.

This post has been edited by Ammanas: 31 December 2010 - 06:18 PM

Also i wonder one thing: if other animals can eat Meat, why the fuck can't we then?

We have the ability to think. This is supposed to make us realize 'This is wrong!', which other animals can't do.

Orite. And check with your doctor before you start. Talk to him/her about the health side of it in relation to you specifically.

1) The one that I agree with is 1. Yes, the amount of harm that would be reduced is small. Then again, getting an entire society (and this is not just a problem in America) to be less wasteful is impossible for one person. It's not like we can all dedicate our lives to these things... but it might make a difference to one animal, once. I'd consider that worth my effort.

2) I disagree. Plants lack a central nervous system, and so they can't "want" anything. Animals can "want" food, water, feel pain, etc.

3) I'm still reading about this. Do you really have to take supplements?

well there are Vegetarian animals, but also Carnivore animals as well, so are you saying if a deer wanted to eat someone it would?

1) You misunderstand. The harm reduced isn't 'small', its non-existent. You are one out of a society of hundreds of millions or billions (depending on your world-view). One person changing won't do anything. Someone dedicating their lives to it and changing national policy (health and food regulations) or going about it in a different way would actually bring change. Passiveness won't do anything besides make you feel superior to other people who don't it (generally).

2) They 'want' alright. If the sun is only shining from a small hole in a box, the plant extends towards it. Roots go deep, directing towards a source of water. The argument is that we should be better than animals because we are on a higher mental plane, does this mean plants should go uncared for just because they're on an even lower plane?

3) My friend couldn't do it without major health risks due for one reason or another. Like I said, check with a doctor before you do it if you really decide to. You will have to take supplements I'm sure though.

Starwatcher, I've worked on a farm in the past.
Please don't believe the sensationalist bullshit you see all over the place. It's just not true in most places.
No becoming a Vegetarian will NOT stop the amount of animals that get killed because farmers have quotas, they fill those quotas, the meat gets bought, and anything that isn't goes to waste. It'd require a MASSIVE section of the population to go Vegetarian for it to have any effect on meat production. So no, it will not have any effect on even a SINGLE animal in the world, sorry bro.

So, becoming a vegetarian won't help stop animal suffering. What else can I do? Any suggestions?

Become a politician.

I have done a lot of research, and am proud and confident in my choice of being vegetarian. For me at least, I never particularly enjoyed eating meat, and I've actually been happier since I switched.


Supply and demand at it's simplest says that if enough people stop buying meat, farmers will produce less of it by breeding or purchasing fewer young animals. If only a few people are vegetarian, the effect will be small, but the more people who cut back on meat, the bigger the effect.

Actually, though, the benefits to your fellow humans are huge as well. It takes ten pounds of wheat protein to produce one pound of beef protein. Ending meat production would make a whole lot more food available for people.

Becoming vegetarian also really helps reduce your carbon footprint. 18 percent of greenhouse gas emissions come from meat production. For comparison, cars, trucks, trains, boats and planes produce only 13 percent of emissions. Not eating meat does a whole lot more than owning a Prius.


However, the health effects are a mixed bag. It really is critical to watch what you eat, because humans evolved to eat meat. Simply replacing the hamburger with french fries will really hurt you, especially if you are young. One of my friends is permanently confined to a wheel chair because of a B-12 deficiency that went unnoticed for years. I have to work hard to ensure that I get the protein and vitamins most people get from meat.

Note well: All of these effects aren't on / off. If you reduce your meat consumption by half, it will still be a huge help. What I personally recommend, at least at first, is to try not eating meat every other day. This will let you know what being vegetarian is like, and how it will affect your daily routine. Long term, cutting back on meat is a very healthy choice, without any of the risks of being fully vegetarian without a properly planned diet. Simply cutting red meat from your diet will have the biggest positive impact on your health, of all these options.



Since this is a discussion, I would also like to provide a few counter-arguments:

Many of you have said that animals eat meat, and so it's okay. Animals also rape each other (dolphins), kill each other's babies (apes), eat their own babies (Sharks), and torture other animals for amusement (house cats). We can all agree that these are not moral behavior for people.

This next bit is shamelessly ripped from Time magazine, but is convincing enough that I am sharing it here:

FIVE REASONS TO EAT MEAT:
1) It tastes good 2) It makes you feel good 3) It's a great American tradition 4) It supports the nation's farmers 5) Your parents did it

Oh, sorry...those are five reasons to smoke cigarettes.

Read more:

Source for global warming statistics: Meat: Making Global Warming Worse - TIME

Source for world hunger information:
How To Feed The World By Going Veggie | TIME.com

Source for health information:
The Growing Case Against Red Meat - TIME
http://www.webmd.com...CFQHs7QodykLtaQ
Should We All Be Vegetarians? - TIME

This post has been edited by Quaddy: 31 December 2010 - 09:52 PM

That's an excellent post - it's really making me think hard about this.

I'm going to try it. Every other day for me will be meat free for the next little while. I'm going to see my doctor for another reason shortly, so I think that I'll ask about this while I'm there.

Thanks to everyone who responded.

cow farts also hurt the environment, so butchers are also helping the environment in their own way!
look i understand how Vegetarians feel about eating animals, my sisters one as well, but i just don't see the point in stoping completely. sorry but i will continue to eat the way i eat.

This is a serious discussion, and so I would like to make a suggestion. When you assert a fact, cite a (reliable) source. There are a lot of misconceptions on both sides of the debate, and foundless claims are not helpful for people trying to make decisions based on truth.

Best things about cooking come from being an omnivore

1. woman think men who can cook are sexy
2. you get to work with fire, sharp instruments, and MEAT
3. women like men who can cook, and you get to work with fire, sharp instruments, and MEAT

as a cook, meat is a dish that can add the most flavor, and can have the most change added to it relatively easy way

here's my bible:

Recipes Every Man Should KnowRecetas que todo hombre debería saber

This post has been edited by lolwut: 01 January 2011 - 01:52 AM

Your right Quaddy this is a serious topic. i'm sorry for my non-serious post guys. (and i mean this, just in case you think i'm being sarcastic.)

Quaddy, on 31 December 2010 - 09:37 PM, said:

They're not? Since when? I love it when someone's able to actually bring up good counter-arguments. So then, trying to base it on nature is completely irrelevant for both sides with this argument.

Quote

Fix'd that for ya.

Quote

Five bucks says that green production is at that or higher. The more one goes down, the more the other goes up, just not as significantly. So we might as well cut out the green diet instead. (This is based on logic, not facts)


That's as much as my oxygen deprived brain can do for the moment.

This post has been edited by Ammanas: 01 January 2011 - 12:08 AM

read Omnivore's dilemma. What is being talked about is known as specieism (sp. needed) It is the act of when a person favors a member of their own species over another being. While this seems quite obvious as it would be a core necessity to the survival of a species, the book uses an example as a mentally retarded child or a human suffering from total paralysis still being favored over other organisms that have a better ability to survive and serve as a part of their environment. Starwatcher, if you are serious about your food then I highly recommend this book or at least reading some reviews and summaries. It condenses large amounts of information into easily understandable figures and has an entire chapter devoted to the argument that is at the heart of this thread, but still much of the book concerns the problems with manufactured foor and industrious farms. I think it might be a bit steep reading for someone who isn't truly motivated to pick it up, but i urge you to try to understand the concepts that it brings up. I'll try to find a philosopher to quote for this.

lolwut, on 01 January 2011 - 02:04 AM, said:

Thank you. I will pick it up from the library the next time I'm out. This is kind of a big issue for me, so it will be good to understand.

Quote

Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't this make no sense? Doesn't this quote say that for every person who would eat 1 pound of meat they would instead have to eat 10 pounds of wheat? If anything this would create a shortage of food since it is more efficient to eat meat isn't it?

Quote

Also (call me negative but I bet it is true) wouldn't it be more likely that instead of farmers farming less meat, the retailers which farmers sell their meat to will simply offer a lower price for it? If anything causing the farmers to farm more cows to earn the same profit. Just an observation because I know the farmers in Australia are getting a pretty raw deal at the moment.

This post has been edited by matty_batty0: 01 January 2011 - 03:20 AM

matty_batty0, on 01 January 2011 - 03:10 AM, said:

We need an actual, reliable source for this. I haven't been able to find one so far, will let you know if I do.

it is a basic energy pyramid. The second law of thermodynamics blah blah blah science crap. Wacko taught me to not be to damn serious on these posts so here is some basic info. In an environment energy flows. as it progresses, it is released through heat and waste materials. the reaso the cow must eat that number of wheat is because firstly the cow does not eat all of weat meaning some of the energy that was used to make the plant does not get taken up. secondly, the cow is a warm blooded animal meaning that it uses cellular respiration heat to warm itself. this means that of the energy gained from the wheat, some of it is not used to make bodily tissue but instead to heat the cow. also the cow needs calories to make its tissues function and also releases quite alot of energy through waste materials meaning once again not all of the wheat was used.

here is your reliable source thing (It might be confusing, but look at the very end and it explains the energy intake of a cow)and a picture to explain entropy (second law of thermodynamics)

How to make a cow




here is an explanation of the energy pyramid:
As energy travels up a food chain, it has a usual retention rate of about 10 percent (can range from 2-40 percent) the reason this happens is because energy is lost from one organism to another through uneaten matter, waste, and bodily heat

two last things:
1: it is correct to say that it is more efficient to eat only plant matter for it is a more condensed form of energy
2: Why do I know this? i aced my Ap environmental class because she didn't care about my spelling and grammatical errors

This post has been edited by lolwut: 01 January 2011 - 03:42 AM

oh I see, I completely forgot that cows have to eat to grow

Awwwww but I wanted to quote the Energy Pyramid! :C Well here's a fun fact, the source of all food energy originates from the Sun.

My contribution to this thread;


Also i'd like to note that vegetarians are the pussy form of Vegans. If your gonna avoid meat you might as well avoid it properly.

This post has been edited by Anialator: 01 January 2011 - 04:33 AM

Anialator, on 01 January 2011 - 04:32 AM, said:

>Implying the image contributes to the thread

Hey I never said it was a positive contribution

And I thought i was being sarcastic I dunno.

Quote

So you are basically saying that the very definition of "vegetarian" is mistaken? ^_^

i love how rare most of the animals in that pot are. i mean they all are suffering from habitat degradation. jesus the amount of pain in that stew would just add so much flavor. you better not have been sarcastic cause we need a hero to eat those stupid bastards like you anialator

You do realise we have a MASSIVE amount of food that never gets used? If anything you're only adding to the waste rather than making food available for more people, by not eating meat. Especially if it's freeing up another 10 pounds of wheat, though I'm calling BS on that statistic anyway.

It might lower YOUR carbon footprint, but that's a crock of shit that governments came up with to let people think they're helping the environment. Those trucks are still gonna be transportin shit!

As for the Health Benefits of not eating red meat, I have no idea about them. If they exist, eat white meat and fish instead, I mean DAYUM is chicken good.
That said, having a few days where you don't eat meat, once or twice a week is what I'd pick if I did it, is actually a reasonable idea, if only because it'll give you a more interesting diet, let you try more stuff, blah blah.

I still thinking becoming a vegetarian is a foolish thing to do, but each to his own.

matty_batty0, on 01 January 2011 - 03:10 AM, said:

He's saying that its a waste. If I remember high school Biology right, we only process 10% of what we eat into energy, so 10%^10% is what happens with beef.