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Are you that FUCKING arrogant, David? "oh hoi de doi, without such a blatant rip-off of an experimental fiction he would never have been able to pull off a story"

You are scum, David, pure and simple. You hide behind your own bloated morals, pretending to float high over the rest of us, when in reality, you're akin to slithering amoeba on the pustule of this planet's rancid rear end. I'm done here, you can go scrabbling at the feet of greater authors than yourself, snorkeling up their buttcracks for ideas that you snatch away while you brown-nose them for all I fucking care.

David, on 18 April 2011 - 08:22 PM, said:

At least get the name right.

This post has been edited by MiwAuturu: 18 April 2011 - 08:31 PM

I have been on these forums for nearly a year and not yet have I seen Migrant write a piece of fiction. Forgive me if I'm wrong.

David, on 18 April 2011 - 08:22 PM, said:

Um, wrong person?
And Mav himself has been proven to be a capable writer, even back in the day.
Whether he would have as much fame here as if he hadn't written Love me is debatable (because he has written plenty other stories, a couple NSFW, that would've launched him up the same way this has)
But like before, you would've been better off just asking Mav to add the sources he used.
This community has gotten quite big in a couple years and I don't believe the majority of them enjoy being told they're wrong for liking something.

@Sushi

Yes, yes I am so arrogant. Happy I said that? Thought not.

It's not as oh hoi de doi as you think. It's pure and simple logic. Not knowing Maverik had written a torture story, you would have never had any inclination to approach him to write one. Sure, you might have commissioned him a piece as a sequel to another story he had written, but it would have been all legitimate, no problems.

Oh, and for your insult, heck, I think that's pretty darn creative. Why didn't you just write the story yourself?

(lol, whoops, just saw the name, fix'd)

This post has been edited by David: 18 April 2011 - 08:44 PM

David, on 18 April 2011 - 08:38 PM, said:

*ahem*

Now you got me sucked into this.

Look, just wait for Mav to fix it.
If he doesn't, then get boycott it. End of story.

(And if you guys want to argue, finish it now or move it to Recess)

This post has been edited by Ved_of_Flames: 18 April 2011 - 08:45 PM

David, on 18 April 2011 - 08:38 PM, said:

It isn't fixed. And, as I have wearily said many times before, he did not write Love Me with the intention of making a profit out of it. That came after, as a way of making ends meet and to get him to BCBcon. He wrote for pleasure and for perfection before that.

Lol, you posted right as I edited, the first fix'd was for the last page.

If I might use the analogy from before, I don't mind writing for pleasure and perfection, as it was said before, he was practicing. But, you do not practice painting by tracing the Mona Lisa. You find how the master holds his brush, and how he makes his brushstrokes. Then you create your own art. Sure, I could achieve perfection by only tracing the Mona Lisa, anyone can, it's practicing by creating your OWN art that is worthwhile in the end.

Love Me was a combination of taking a traced copy of Mona Lisa's face and body, and putting it to a different background. Sure, you can call it your own, but the meat of the piece, the part people really look at and examine, is not your own.

That may be the case, but Maverik is an accomplished author, and so does not have holes in his knowledge that he has filled by tracing the Mona Lisa. Thus, as I believe I said, he was testing himself by putting characters into a set situation and seeing if he could pull it off; thus the analogy of painting in the style of another.

And it's all fine to paint in the style of another, I get that. And I understand why he wanted to put the characters in a different situation. But why, if you have the knowledge and ability to freehand the Mona Lisa, would you still trace it? Why not create your own portrait?

Sooo, when is the Third chapter coming

Because, if you have the knowledge and ability to draw the Mona Lisa, you draw the Mona Lisa. If something's there at your fingertips, why reach a mile?

Reading the reviews others have given, I am dreading the contents of this Fic and thus am unable to sum up the courage to read it. But knowing Maverick its probably a horrid masterpiece o3o

Redjack
Actually it isn't that bad its quite interesting, except for the gory and bloody stuff if you don't prefer those...but hey ^^

My imagination tends to get the better of me and I then create haunting images in my dreams that I would rather not acquire. He probably has made a great story, but when I read horror stuff like that I sometimes feel like I can actually see it happening in front of me so vividly

Because that's what we as writers and artists do.

We take the methods of masters, and create our own portraits. We see our portraits, critisize them, and perfect them. And more than our portraits, we perfect our style. We create, what creates us. Then we create art, that is truly ours.

As it is for writers. When we take ideas and pointers from our masters, it does not simply apply to plots and events as Sushi thought. We see their formatting, their word choice, their presentation and tone. We take what we can of them and create our own stories. We see our stories, critisize them, and perfect them. And more than our stories, we perfect our style. We create, what creates us. Then we create our stories, that are truly ours.

That is the goal here, for any author. The real author, is the one who practices to perfect himself, his own style, using the tecniques of his masters, to further his own ability and create literature that defines him as the author he is.

This post has been edited by David: 18 April 2011 - 09:36 PM

Yeah I think that is generally the idea of what authors and writers are looking for. Although I'm not sure how that's supposed to make it sound any better to me than it already is.

Redjack, you might want to read the rest of this thread, it might shed some light on the matter for you.

And for those concerned about that "horrid masterpiece" comment. That is meant as a compliment.

That's all very well if you have time to spare and a passion that exceeds the bounds of life, but as it is, we have very little time for such precision. Literary perfection is, of course, a constant goal and one that is reached through a lifetime's toil, and along that road it is sometimes necessary to use what nature gives you to aid you on your journey. Maverik has done so here, by using what he can to expand his repetoir of abilities. I'm not saying that it should be a habit, but using it as he used it is fine in the grand scheme of things; he used it as a tool to aid him, rather than a piton to climb to ill-gotten glory.

Are you still talking to David, Sammy?

Agreed, perfection is nigh upon an unreachable goal. If you are forced to use what is not yours due to being rushed, then why would you not at least admit which parts are not yours. And why, if you are writing for the passion you feel for writing, would you rush to create a story. Reguardless of the time alotted to you, if you are writing for pleasure, I can't see how rushing to produce, while writing a practice piece, which by definition is your attempt to get better, could further any goal of improvement at all. No, he may not be training to become a professional author, but he has seen that in addition to him being a crowd pleaser, it can bring in a few extra bucks here and there. So why would he not strive for as much personal perfection that he can attain with what he's been given?

This post has been edited by David: 19 April 2011 - 02:48 AM

Jesus christ, just enjoy the damn story. No one cares.

I will say again, he did not intend Love Me to be anything but an excercise and I don't think he was even going to publish it on the site. Thus, he did not feel it necessary to cite sources or inspiration, in the same way that, to use the tired analogy, a painter does not need to tell anyone whose style he is using. If you aren't going to show anyone what you are doing, or at least you don't intend to, then there is no point, because you know the sources already. As for striving for perfection, well, let's just ;eave that there, or this debate could go on for months.

Shan-a-han, on 19 April 2011 - 07:01 AM, said:

I don't think anyone asked you. Shut the fuck up.

This post has been edited by Sammy: 19 April 2011 - 09:25 AM

*sigh* Round and round we go...

Although I don't see the point of practicing to better your talents, when you aren't really exercising your creative abilities, I don't see an early end to this circle-debate, so I think I'm going to agree with you in that we're going to have to compromise on this and wait for Mav's input...

Indeed. So can we agree that, although it may not be the most talent-enhancing of activities, Mav was not in the wrong, as he did not intend to make a profit out of his writing?

This post has been edited by Sammy: 19 April 2011 - 11:39 AM

I THINK TRACING IS WRONG

ALL TRACERS SHOULD BE STONED AND CRUCIFIED NO MERCY

Die maverik die your reign of terror over these innocent readers has ended

What's with the ridiculous pile-on? David may be a retarded redneck hick but his posts in this thread seem fair. Yet Alpha Male SushiJaguar can't stop waving his dick in the air and Sammy etc are getting super offended and angry about what seems like a useful observation. Grow up, morans.

Guys, guys

Couldn't we all just

Stop fighting ;-:

But srsly, both sides have good points. Love Me might be somewhat of a rip, you have to admit that the fittingness of the situation from BCB, the characters' reactions and actions, and the twist at the end was cool. Not to mention the good translation from video to story form. In my opinion, that makes the story unique enough to not be a ripoff.

And for the making a profit thing, well I say Sushi was a satisfied customer.

But honestly

Stop the madness plz ;-;

This post has been edited by MadMadDan: 19 April 2011 - 12:37 PM

I wasn't particularly offended. In fact, it was quite a reasoned debate. You're the one blowing this out of proportion.

Quote

Just a quote from Maverik in the old forum's Love Me topic.

This post has been edited by Junior Boomer: 19 April 2011 - 12:41 PM

Wow. This series just keeps on coming back to life doesn't it?

Long story short, the mirror was inspired from Law Abiding Citizen, Sandy's costume & welding mask was an homage to the one from hostel, and I'm sure if I people looked hard enough, they'd find about a million other things that were completely unintentional.

As I've said before, it was an amalgam of movies I've seen, books I've read, and my own imagination. I didn't "source" anything at the time because a) It wasn't relevant as it was just written for a bet and personal improvement, b) I've mentioned these the two things that I knowingly did several times in several places, and c) I still don't feel like anything was 'stolen', as both things were not "traced" as it has been so eloquently put.

A story is not a movie. The delivery is completely different. As such, an idea borrowed from a film and integrated into a written work is a different experience.

Also, I find it a little odd that you claim that "The entire torture is ripped off", but from my understanding, the only things that are remotely similar are the mirror, the eyelids (which, if I remember right, he threatens but never actually does it?) & apparently the adrenalin? Which I actually don't remember. I just remember some bull about a drug that paralyzes you but doesn't numb you.

The point is, you're making a big thing out of this, and painting me to be some kind of horrible person, before you've even had a chance to find out whether or not your assumptions are founded. If there IS similarities to Law Abiding Citizen other than what I intended, then I apologies. As has been stated, it was an attempt to branch out. I am not a murder mystery writer. The result is that I'm surprised you're griping so much over an accidental similarity, rather than all the gaping plot holes that it's filled with.

As for whether or not I made money off a sequel... Is that really an issue? You say it's a problem because the idea to ask me for a sequel would not have entered Sushi's mind if not for the first. But to that I ask "So what?". I asked people for commissions. Sushi provided this one. Was I supposed to tell him that he is not allowed to pay me to write it? I was not going to write any more fanfiction for free, so I wouldn't be making an exception for him. So, what? I'm just not allowed to give a paying customer the original work that they asked for?

tl;dr
The mirror is an homage to Law Abiding Citizen. Sandy's outfit and mask is an homage to the outfit from Hostel. Any other similarities are coincidental and were not intended.

Thank you very much.

Sammy, on 19 April 2011 - 12:35 PM, said:

Sammy, on 18 April 2011 - 11:13 AM, said:

Sammy, on 18 April 2011 - 05:58 PM, said:

Nope pretty sure you were being a total cock Sammy, sorry.

I mean you got better, but honestly. "let's see you write something better"? Seriously? What is wrong with you? What kind of retarded logic is that? It's the same bullshit anti-criticism mindset that DeviantArt has. It's despicable and a complete insult to artists who genuinely want to improve. I admittedly think Maverik has a lot to learn, and he has admitted to that and has said that he wouldn't mind criticism. So the concept of having a protective dream team telling people to FUCK OFFFFFFFFF the moment someone points out problems/contradictions/issues is absurd. He can take care of himself like he has proven above. And besides, if you want to defend him, don't do it by telling the critics to "go elsewhere" or that "nobody cares." You guys weren't civilised at all, I mean you got better and Sushi continued being an asshat, but seriously. Don't act like you guys were the reasonable ones. You guys are being pretty pile-on and obnoxious and blowing the accusation out of proportion when it coulda just been Maverik coming in and clearing things up and there we go.

I'm sorry, but at first he was being a bit of a cunt, coming into a topic and bashing everything that Mav had done. As a fan, surely i had somewhat of a right to tell him otherwise, what with free speech and all. Admittedly yes, I was a little rash, but David turned out to be a pretty decent guy and I had no idea of this at the beginning. Troll-bashing is just what you do in these cases, because most of the time these people have little or no idea of what they're talking about, hence my "write it yourself hurrdurr" comment. As it is, there were about three posts of heated anger and then a further page of reasoned argument.

This post has been edited by Sammy: 19 April 2011 - 02:40 PM

Oh no... No way in hell am I touching anything related to Love Me! I'm getting out of here...

*sigh*

Ok, you say any other similarities are coincidence, and that'd be fine in most cases, but when 75% of the story is exactly the same as another source, that's when I start to have a problem. The movie did not directly show most of the torture, but later, he divulged the other means of torture in which he inflicted upon his victim, almost all of which was then used in your story in the exact same manner.

But I will not argue this any further.

If you are honest in your wish to become a better writer, and are accepting of criticism, then let me help you here.

You say that in this practice story, you were attempting to pay homage to the aforementioned stories. Stop. Practicing is meant to help you the author in your own abilities as a creative writer, not an exercise to flaunt the abilities of others. Secondly, if you ARE going to pay homage to somethnig, make sure you actually DO pay homage to it. Either mention it before your story or at the end of your story. Using material that is not yours and not mentioning the source is not paying homage to, it's just stealing. If I may misquote Heinlein here, what you have done here is a kind of pseudo-intellectual masterbation. But truly creative writing, is akin to intercourse, where the author reders emotion through and with his audience by his own abilities. You could have even very easily worked your "homage" into the story with just a bit of effort.

"The sound of rusted wheels caught his attention, thankfully pulling him away from his dilemma momentarily. A large mirror was wheeled in front of him, revealing his restrained visage back to him. Lucy slipped around the side of the full length reflective surface, looking in it and then back to Mike, as though assessing his line of sight."

Mike could almost see Lucy smiling behind the dark visor of her mask as she leaned in close to his ear and whispered, "I got this idea from Law Abiding Citizen. I'd suggest it to you to watch but-" She was cut off by her own bout of laughter. Already trembling from the adrenaline coursing through his veins, the laughter did nothing but to set his skin crawling. Still giggling softly to herself, Lucy carressed his ear, "I don't think you'll be in a position to watch anything after today..."

Simple.

But you are practicing, and should not be using any material except your own. To do otherwise only impairs and hurts your own creative thinking. If you are honestly hurting to create your own ideas, let me give you some advice.

If you are stuck in front of your computer, with nothing coming to mind, get up. Walk around, pace, get your blood moving, more blood to the brain = more creativity. I personally start all of my drafts in a notebook so I can write as I walk. I also carry a small note booklet with me where ever I go so that I can jot down ideas that pop into my head for stories when I'm not at home so I can always remember them for later.

As you are working with snuff and torture, walking around your house can be useful twofold. Look around you, everything in your house is now a weapon. You just have to find out how to use it. On my counter, I see a blener. A normal writer might shove a hand or other extremity into the blades, but that's too "cookie cutter" for me. If you take off the pitcher and blade, you'll see the small metal key used to spin the blades. I imagine shoving that spinning key into my victims mouth, grinding and chipping away his teeth. I also see a bottle of Windex on the counter. One man might spray some in the eyes of his victim, another might make his victim drink a teaspoon of it, causing nausea, pain, and throwing up. Don't just stick your victim's hand into the toaster, take the heating coils out of the toaster so you can burn whatever part of your victim that you like. You might even alternate activating one coil on one part of the body, then activating another coil on a different part to make sure your victim doesn't get bored. The thing to remember here is this, "Application, application, application."

Got your ideas in place, but something still feels wrong? Check the tone of the piece. Is it consistent? Is it dark enough? Is it too dark? This is where I suggest reading other material for ideas. See how they format the piece. Do they stick to just the torture, or do they switch back and forth between torture and the outside world. You might Have the piece start off at the beginning of the torture and throw in how the victim was captured during lulls in the torture. See how they create the environment, is it implied, do they give out all the details at the beginning, or do you gain tidbits all throughout the story? I find that this is the hardest part of creating a story, any story for that matter. Word choice and presentation can very easily make or break the story. Whenever I finish a story, I always leave it alone for at least two days, longer for the longer stories. I don't reread it, I don't look at it, I try not to even think about it. After it's been a suficiently long enough period of time, I come back and look at it with a fresh mind. I look at how I worded things, I look at how I portrayed the characters, I look at everything. With a fresh outlook, I can better criticize myself and make changes to better tell the story. I repeat this process 2-3 times until I think it's decent enough to publish. As a writer, you are trying to convey your imagination through words, and if your wording is not up to snuff, (see what I did there?) so it too appears that your creativity and ability as a writer is in the same boat.

Take the advice or not, it's your choice. But I leave you with this.

As writers, it is not our duty or our desire to "pay homage to" other sources of entertainment, it is our duty and desire to entertain our readers through the application of our own creative talents and literary abilities all the while striving to better them. THAT is why we write.

This post has been edited by David: 19 April 2011 - 10:13 PM

While I would agree with you for the most part, that as writers we need to create new and interesting things, I would also disagree that we should avoid paying homage, and that we should clutter the work with unnecessary tripe such as force feeding lines like "I saw this on <insert movie here>". If anything, I try to avoid naming any real world place/person/media, as it almost always sounds incredibly tacky.

Most of what you've said is pretty much writing 101, and I won't fault you for trying to improve somebody, as I myself often try to do so, but I will admit to knowing most of this already. However, I must admit that your own methodology for creative torture is quite useful and well devised. A tool I may use if ever I find myself in the appropriate situation once again.

Now, here's where I believe our opinion differs significantly. These 2 things that I knowingly uses were not a matter of me "Not being able to think of anything". They were a matter of me realizing that they were great ideas, and that I wanted to build off of that. Have I "Traced somebody's idea"? No. I have not. In part, because in both cases, the things that I borrowed were never actually explored. In hostel, the outfits were simply a way to keep the killers blood & gore free. In mine, it was used to aid in the whole deception. In Law Abiding Citizen, the mirror was used to foreshadow the horror that would take place, where as in my story, it is a very prominent way for me to convey Mike's agony.

But perhaps the most obvious reason is that, again, these are different mediums. As a filmmaker, I know for a fact that what is written on the page translates entirely differently to an audience than what is seen on the screen. A torture shown could be a fleeting moment. Ignored by the viewer as a stepping stone up towards the more gruesome stuff. But in writing, you can take that fleeting moment, and drag it out. Force the reader to consider just what pain might be caused by a knife slowly serrating across their eyelid. To remind them constantly of how the protagonist has a front row seat to this entire debacle, and to convey the inner torment of it all.

What I did was not "steal an idea". What I did was work a clever concept into my own piece. If you were to become hung up on this concept, then you may as well give up writing, because almost every idea you will ever have has likely, in some form or another, been explored, hinted at, or mentioned elsewhere. For that matter, how can you be sure that Law Abiding Citizen is the first media to have tried this? Hell, as a perfect example, Sandy's outfit is constantly mistaken for "being stolen" from any number of places. It is the creators lament.

If I had similar a plot? Similar characters? Similar setting? I might consider this to be a more sobering assault. But honestly, an mundane concept is not something that may never be used again. By that logic, we should never see another film or book involving a sentient AI. Good or bad. Because the concept has been done. Or further, we should never use the idea of blinding a torture victim. Because I can thing of a ton of things that have done that! Ghosts? Can't use em! etc etc ad nauseum.

What matters is whether or not the application differs. And I believe that is true of my story, as I have already stated.

If you still really want to call foul on it, then I want to remind you that I DID admit to these things several times in it's original posting. Any further posting has been for archival purposes. And if you consider even that to be not enough, and feel that justice must be served, then you have my blessing to contact Felix Gray, Gerard Butler, Kurt Wimmer or The Film Department (the production company) and to demand that they serve me a cease and desist.

There is no problem here; the author is fully aware of what is going on and does not give a shit. Any moral quandaries, therefore, are null and void.

It would be a more interesting question if the source of the subject matter did not know what was going on, or didn't like it, but even in that case, so long as you are not competing with the franchise in question, it is difficult to really say much about it. People spend money on all sorts of silly things.

If he was selling copies of it, THEN we'd start to really run into the gray area, but being paid to write up something whose sole purpose is to be fanfiction, and which exists entirely within the fandom, and is free to read? Pretty hard to really condemn it.

This post has been edited by Titanium Dragon: 20 April 2011 - 07:52 AM

Copypasta of what I said in the IRC on this subject:

Well, the thing is, a commission is something that only one person pays for. It's not something that is mass produced or something that everyone has to pay to view. If that was the case, then maybe I could side with David, but it's not. Love Me was done for free, for the enjoyment of writing a story and sharing it, while the second one was paid for by one person. It's the only profit that Mav had received as a result. There are several instances in which people ask for commissions from other people on art sites like deviantArt for characters that are not the artist's own, but rather the property of some entertainment company. Should that be held to the same grounds as someone blatantly ripping off someone else's movie word for word? Notice how I use the term "word for word". What Sushi paid for was not a retelling of Law Abiding Citizen, and the first one is not a retelling of it as well. Neither do artists who do those kinds of commissions "trace" art like David seems to make what Mav did akin to. Yes, the first one does pay homage to Hostel and Law Abiding Citizen, but that holds little, if any, bearing on Love Hurts at all.

"-clutter the work with unnecessary tripe such as force feeding lines like "I saw this on <insert movie here>". If anything, I try to avoid naming any real world place/person/media, as it almost always sounds incredibly tacky."

This statement alone pretty much confirms my nagging suspicion that you have no idea what the hell you're actually talking about and you do belong in "writing 101". That you came in here with no real defense, took snippets of what your followers defended you with, and you are simply regurgitating them to me in the hopes that I will go away because it's now coming from the horse’s mouth, (although horses can't actually throw up...)So let me help you remedy this ignorance.

When you pay homage to something, you are directly honoring content that you used, but came from an outside source. What you've told me here is, "Yeah, I like to pay tribute to things, but I don't actually want to --pay tribute to them-- you see, I just want to use others content in my own stories and hope others understand I'm not using my own abilities without actually indicating as such."

Yes, my version of how you could have mentioned it was a little tacky, but if you actually exercised your imagination, you would realize that there is more than one way to word things.

As you are no doubt still confused as to this matter, I will use some real life examples here.

In one of my recently published short sf stories, the setting for the most part took place in a Ganymede moon base. In this story, I named it, "The Hubbard Moon Base" and was from then on referred to as the HMB. This was my homage to L. Ron Hubbard, one of my own favorite authors of the mid-twentieth century, as well as the creator, (with heavy influences from Robert A. Heinlein) of what is now known as Scientology. It was me tipping my hat to another author, it was paying homage. I did not need to clarify where the name came from, because if you are reading the book it was published in, you probably know enough sf to understand the reference. If not, the name made no impact on the rest of the story and is a negligible detail.

In my furry romance storyline, the very first line on the very first part says the following, "Thanks goes out to XxxxxxxXxxxxxx and his stories of this genre to inspire me to write my own." I directly cited my tribute, and it does not make it tacky or cluttered, it makes it a true homage, one he later thanked me for.

You may be tiring of my so far narcissistic approach to teach you, so I will switch to a middle ground, Taeshi.

A character that immediately comes to mind is the ever popular Carter. His very being is a homage to, (albeit a parody) the 1950's sitcom "I Love Lucy." Like my Hubbard Moon Base, she does not need to explain the origin of this, because everyone already knows what he is. The reference is BLATENTLY OBVIOUS.

Another character that we may examine is Carson. His existence was explained in a full page comic as to how he was ”homage" to the gay community. She then explained the origins of the idea for him further in the description box, and while he was still in the "about" page, he was explained even further. This was not "tacky", this was Taeshi getting the point across, this was paying a tribute to something and covering all the bases.

Have I gotten my point across? Probably not, let's continue with a theoretical case now.

Say you were to write a 12 page essay on AIDS. In this paper, you may make the statement, "AIDS kills people." Now while that statement might get you marked down by your professor for being too bland, you would not need to cite where you got the information. It's common knowledge, it's BLATENTLY OBVIOUS. Now if you were to take that statement and turn it into a more exact answer explaining how AIDS does not directly kill people, but destroys their immune system and allows viruses to better wreak havoc until the carrier is dead, yeah you'd probably want to cite that. You would want to cite where the information came from, and who discovered it. What you are doing when you cite something in an essay, is you are paying homage to the original founder(s) of the information and content you are using in your own work. And so it is for creative writing, when you are "paying homage to" anything, you are citing and honoring the original source.

So now that I believe I have sufficiently explained to you the meaning of your argument, let's look at your actions backing it.

It has been brought up several times so far by your protectors and later regurgitated yourself that you did admit to stealing the content from outside sources in the thread. So I took a look at the original thread myself.

Your bastard story was first posted on September 10, 2010, at 2:30 in the morning. You did not mention your sources before you began the story, you did not integrate it into your story, and you did not cite your sources at the end of your story. In fact, you did not mention it on the first page at all. Or even the second page for that matter. It was not until at the very bottom in the last comment of the third page, did you admit that you stole the idea of a mirror from an outside source, and only after Lark09 posted the following when he saw the same things I did and questioned you on its legitimacy, "I know this is a little old but did you get some of the ideas for the story the movie “Law Abideing Citicen” i saw it today and found simularitys."

Only after you were directly questioned on the matter, did you ever even ADMIT to using material that was not your own. And you have to go down onto the fourth page for you to admit to stealing the costume from Hostel. And this was no short interim between completion of the story and admittance to theft, it took you 35 DAYS after the fact and only after being questioned did you even mention your sources. It took you over a MONTH to admit this. How, by any stretch of the imagination, could you possibly say you were trying to pay homage to something by using its ideas as your own, and then hiding the information for OVER A MONTH?

I'll tell you how. You simply had no intention of divulging the truth unless you were directly asked about it. You see, I've dealt with people like you before on other forums. You do exactly as all the others. You use material that's not your own and try to keep it under the rug, you only steal from people and things you believe are fairly unknown. Then you hide, wait, and watch. You see if anyone calls you on it, and if they do, you creep out of the woodworks like the termites you are, eating away at the integrity of the system, to try to defend yourself, either through dismissal, admittance, or argument.

That's why, in the first few days, even though you received much praise from the readers, you only commented 4 times. You knew you used references that were too popular for its own good, as you had originally intended for only a few people to see it, and you waited to see if anyone would call you out on it. You wanted that thread to die and be forgotten, that's why you refused to bump it by thanking the people for their praise. You only came to explain details regarding the story.

19 days passed, the thread had slowed almost to a standstill, you had almost gotten off scott free, when JimmyP424 necro'd the thread. By this time, no one had as of yet called you out, and you were starting to feel safe. One other important thing happened on this day, you made a statement which I will come back to later, but that comment was a turning point for you in your safety zone, as well as for you as a writer.

27 days pass. You are now confident in your position in the belief that no one will discover your secret. You make several posts on this day, giving tips, almost being conversational. You believe yourself a free man.

35 days pass. Lark09 makes his monumental comment. It took you 43 minutes to see this allegation, and decide how you wanted to respond. You decide to tell a partial-truth. You admit to the origin of the mirror, but say that any other similarities are purely coincidental. You have at this point also not admitted to the costume being ripped from Hostel. The thread comes back to life. Lark09 brings up other similarities between the two. Another user named Susan makes a feeble attempt to defend you. You finally admit that you also stole the costume. Lark09 further questions the originality of the torture, but you refuse to answer his questions past this point.

Beyond Lark09, the legitimacy of the originality of the piece is no longer brought up in this thread, and is forgotten.

Let's switch gears here to a more easily answered question. Is Love Me the source of your fame and the reason for your rise, was it your "big break"? You answered this one yourself on the 19th day after your initial post.

"I find it moderately amusing that new people keep finding the story and reading it and so on and so forth. It’s gained its own sort of infamy.

Now if only the rest of my fanfics could attract this much readership ^^;"

You admit yourself that you had never received this much praise before, and this statement only on the second page. It had only been 19 days, yet from past experience, you had expected this story to have died already.

I was accused of not knowing of your literary prowess, or of your fame in the forums, but I know you quite well. I remember when you first climbed out into the open with your fanfics. You were a nobody. You were lucky if the comments filled the page length, with half of the comments being your own. I remember how your stories were forgotten on the same day you posted them. Perhaps one of your most popular stories to the date, was the "All It Takes" series found here: http://www.bitterswe...ive/9669-2.html . That thread is a prime example of how your stories went. All It Takes had 7 parts to the story, each part spanning several post. Then many of the comments beyond that are of your own. Still, it didn't even reach the third page. The general feel here is that of, “They’re OK, but nothing really all that special.”

The only exceptions to this rule was when you created a thread like your edit thread, or the "Greatest BCB Story Ever Told" thread that thrived due to the efforts of others.

Love Me was in fact your big break. It was the story that landed you where you are today. It is the story that created the persona of "Maverik the Great Author". This story made you.

And yet, even though this was obviously your big break at the time, contrary to all of your other postings, for the first 19 days, you were almost a mute. You held your breathe hoping that thread would die and be buried with your secret.

Could you have made your way here without Love Me? While you could have worked your way up slowly on your current track, it’s highly unlikely you’d be anywhere even NEAR where you are today with your popularity.

Back then, you were probably wondering how this story not only gained such infamy but then retained it well past what you believed was to be its expiration date. This again is a simple answer. People remember your Love Me, for the same reason they remember Adolf Hitler. It's the shock effect, or shock value that each contains.

Both contain subjects that are extremely socially unacceptable, and both shove it on the viewer with such force as to sear it into their memory.

Everyone knows the things Hitler did, so let's examine what was contained in Love Me that sticks in the mind.

A)A mirror so the victim may watch himself suffer.

B)Cutting out eyelids to force the victim to watch and the resulting side effects.

C)A soldering iron used to cauterize the eyelids.

D)Yanking out fingernails.

E)Cutting off fingers with a tree trimmer.

F)Crushing toes with pliers.

G)Crushing hands with a hammer.

H)Beating

I)Cutting open a penis with a box cutter.

J)Shoving nails though and into a penis.

K)An electrical shock to a penis.

L)Using a gun to blow out eardrums

M)Killing.

N)Plot twist ending.

O)Done in an abandoned warehouse surrounded by blinding lights.

P)Mask to conceal the antagonist's face.

Q)Adrenaline to keep the victim alert.

So I count about 17 things here adding up to create the shock effect of Love Me. Now let’s take out everything you stole, and see if we can create the same effect.

Let's start with Hostel. I have not seen Hostel, but you have already admitted to stealing the uniform, so let's just get that out of the way.

A)The uniform. If we take away the uniform, this not only cancel's out P, but N as well, as Mike would be able to see his assailant, and it would be impossible to retain the twist without the covering.

Now on to the real meat, Law Abiding Citizen.

A)The torture took place in a warehouse surrounded by blinding lights, this of course cancels out O.

B)Clyde injects adrenaline in his victim to keep him alert, so does Lucy, cancel out Q.

C)The mirror, you admitted to this theft, let's cancel out A.

D)Clyde threatened to cut off his eyelids and comes within a few millimeters of doing so. This provides more than enough substance to steal from even if they didn't actually show the cutting. This cancels out both B and C.

E)Clyde makes two references to the boxcutter being used on his victim's penis. "Now this is for your penis, but we'll get to that later." This said while brandishing a boxcutter in front of his victim's face. "-and his penis with a boxcutter." Said while making his confession. So let’s cancel out I.

F)Also during the confession, Clyde remarked, "I took his fingers with bolt cutters," In the story, you said Lucy snipped them off with a tree trimmer. First of all, you obviously have no idea what a tree trimmer is, because what you described in the story in function and description beyond the name, was most certainly not a tree trimmer. A tree trimmer is usually a saw attached to a long pole so that you can saw off branches while remaining on the ground. What you described however, is the exact description belonging to bolt cutters or hedge clippers, the difference between which however, is negligible. Let's cancel out E.

Other torture methods were used, but they bared fewer semblances to the ones remaining that you used, so I’ll let you have those.

So what remains, and how does it stand up?

D)Yanking out fingernails. Possibly one of the most overused torture methods ever invented. Zero creativity.

F)Crushing toes with pliers. Painful, certainly. Creative, not so much, and you only spent a few short lines on it.

G)Crushing hands with a hammer. Again, a very overused method, and one you only saw fit to write another few lines for, although the description in those short lines got it a few points.

H)Beating. Everyone beats their victim, everyone, so again no creativity here at all. You only spent one line in this area. Zero substance.

J)Penis mutilation from nails. The first and one of the only creative things in this story, although I’m beginning to doubt you could contrive this on your own now, but I have no evidence to show otherwise, and so it remains.

K)An electrical shock to the penis. Although still somewhat creative, I have seen a minor resurgence in electro genital stimulation and torture recently. Although it is not as widespread as fingernail pulling, it’s getting there.

L)Using a gun to blow out eardrums. This I can actually believe came from you. It was indeed creative, and a good integration of how sensitive Mike’s ears were to sound, to destroying them through gunblasts. Although unfortunately, you again handicapped yourself by only utilizing this for 3 sentences.

M)Killing. Both you and Law Abiding Citizen killed your victims, but it couldn’t be helped in either case, so you retain this. There was no real creativity in the death, but it was mandatory for story progression, so it contained a bit of substance.

By the end, you are left with only 8 methods of torture, so more than half of what was used, was stolen, and the remaining methods were for the most part rather unimpressive.

Here’s the story we’re left with. Sandy tortures Mike in front of Lucy by ripping out his nails and crushing his toes and hands. Insert generic cop filler. Sandy continues to torture Mike by sticking nails down and through his penis, and then electrocuting it. Insert more generic cop filler. Sandy blows out Mike’s eardrums then shoots him in the head. She unties Lucy, hands Lucy the gun, and Lucy kills Sandy. Insert generic funeral scene. Conclusion.

What you are left with can be summed up in one short statement. Mediocre at best. You have a story where the main focus is now more on the generic filler cop investigation that originally served almost no purpose and added very little substance to the piece, with a few minor torture scenes interspersed.

Your readers are left with a sense of unfulfillment and anger. All are asking “Why would Sandy do something like that?” and any answer you give them, without the plot twist, will seem shallow, take away and distract from what decent content you were able to give them with the torture scenes.

Your story is doomed to barely make it to the second page of comments, if that, and to only stay on the front page for possibly 3-4 days, lingering at the bottom of the page before finally dropping into the recesses of obscurity.

Do you know why you enjoyed my versions of torture? It is because they are my own. Because I took 6 minutes to myself, and I simply imagined. I used my creativity, and I created 3 simple methods to inflict pain that are absolutely original to myself, and more importantly, to my reader.

While I could continue, quite frankly, I tire of this, and so I will end this as quickly as I can.

With all the evidence I’ve contained here, I can conclusively say, without a doubt in my mind, with absolute confidence, that QED, ergo, ipso facto, a posteriori, SINE QUA NON, ET CETERA AD FUCKING NAUSEM:

You are nothing.

You are an idiot.

You are a fake.

You are a thief.

You are a hack.

You are the very reason for contraception.

And you are a disgrace to every man who has ever put pencil to paper in an effort to express his creativity.

If I may quote our good friend SushiJaguar here.

“You are scum, pure and simple. You hide behind your own bloated morals, pretending to float high over the rest of us, when in reality, you're akin to slithering amoeba on the pustule of this planet's rancid rear end. I'm done here, you can go scrabbling at the feet of greater authors than yourself, snorkeling up their buttcracks for ideas that you snatch away,”

Because you are too incompetent to even use your imagination, and too much of a pretentious idiot to admit to your wrongs.

Though I know that if you deign to respond to this, it will simply end up being a matter of your word against mine, I rest easy knowing that you, like the rest of the plagiarizing termites I have dealt with, will end in failure.

I am done here.

Thank you to the people who remained reasonable in your responses, and I am sorry for my outburst here. I do not intend to insult anyone here, except those who deserve it.

@David Long post is...just long

Joke aside..

First
Lets point out YOUR originality and creativity.



Seemingly you've done only, three edits...I may be incorrect but since I haven't really found anything else from you I'll just use these...Which aren't really even that original, nor creative, at very LEAST they are trying to funny to some point but nothing more.

You even have guts to talk trash about other peoples work where author himself said he used references from movies ? Even though he didn't mention it at start. That's still just plain wrong since it sounds like your purpose of reading the story was just to find 'mistakes' and 'lack of originality'...

Second
You say you are a writer, how about post some of your stories and we will just see and point out how many clique and overused scenes are in your story and compare it to Maverik's and see which one is better ?

Third
Since it was a commission, I doubt there was a big note pointing out that the whole story has to be:

This post has been edited by Blazer: 22 April 2011 - 12:19 AM

Man. Where in the HELL do you get off? Seriously? You couldn't BE more wrong about almost EVERYTHING in that post, but Christ almighty, you're going to ram your presumptions down our throats like they're the fucking gospel truth? I WISH I had the time to sit here and address each point, but I'm literally halfway out the door on my way out to an Easter camping trip.

Maybe I'll be able to formulate a more coherent response when I get back, though that's even if I can get past the fact that, despite my attempts to be civil and rational, you basically just spit in my face and decided to insult me directly as best you could. And fuck man. You think I'm basking in glory here? That I think I'm bigger than Jesus? I have NO confidence in my writing skills beyond "Not bad for fanfiction". Anything else is praise from others. I wrote a shitty story on a bet, and you come in here and try and tell me that I'm some horrible monster? What the fuck? Why in the hell are you white knighting the entire literature industry?

Ugh... I don't have time to be sitting here typing. If I can bring myself to look at this thread again on Tuesday, I'll try and formulate a better response... I'll see you all on the other side of Easter :\

Have fun on your easter trip~

@Blazer

None of those points were relevant.

@David

You made some good points there, and a lot of it (mainly the earlier stuff) I agree with. Yes, Maverik SHOULD have cited his sources. Simple as that. I haven't seen a good argument against that so far in this thread either. It is his responsibility as a writer, an artist, and a person. You give credit where credit is due.

But I must admit that some of the things you said, while I admit can be justified to an extent, are a bit far-fetched. A lot of the accusations you made about Maverik seem a bit excessive, and are based on assumptions.

I say assumptions because your accusations were based on and supported by psychology. Me of all people, the person who has played that card many 'a times in the past, would be expected to support such a defense, but I don't. The fact is, you made needless accusations and based them on debatable truth. Then you made further accusations based upon the original accusations. In short, you don't have enough undeniable proof to go as far as you did.

I also go on to say that attacking his character the way you did was ridiculously unprofessional, and you carry yourself with to much pride, but that is simply my opinion. I can understand your anger, and I see your points, I just feel they are excessive.

This discussion has gotten pretty heated so i thought everyone might like a little song to get back in a good mood.


@Maverik

I have just read and enjoyed both "Love Me" and"Love Hurts". Cant wait for number three.

I agree with Meowth, and to be honest, I personally found that whole, "ON THE _____ DAY YOU WERE _____" Detective laying out all the "evidence" and the criminal's thought process, to be overly ridiculous and impossible to be taken seriously. It felt like I was reading some kind of shitty mystery novel where the lead detective is all full of himself and 100% certain of all the things he was saying. In reality however, it was completely far-fetched, seeing how anyone who's spoken to Maverik outside of a few forum posts would know none of that is anything like him. It just sounds like you have this image of Maverik just siting in his chair going "NYA! YES THEY WILL NEVER KNOW NYAH!" and twirling his mustache.

I'm surprised nobody has pointed out what I thought was an extremely glaring hole in David's argument. I guess I'll have to get drawn into this argument.

If you'll note, David applies his policy of "it's plagiarized, rip it violently out of the story" policy to remove Sandy's welding mask and apron and then uses that to remove the plot twist at the end. Even if we disregard the fact that, at least according to someone who nobody has contradicted yet, the outfit in Hostel is solely to keep the torturer clean, we are still left with the conclusion that David thinks Maverik is too stupid to come up with the idea of some disguise in general on his own. I don't think anyone that stupid would be able to plagiarize in the first place; it must be harder to steal from other works than from your own vocabulary.

Wow, David's post got all tremendously huge.

Also, Blazer is an idiot. Let's see his art before he says anything about anyone else's, huh guys?

A few notes:

No matter your personal definition of homage, I think the subtle integration of ideas from other sources is perfectly fine. While I accept naming a space ship Hubbard or whatever is a clever way to draw attention to it, you do not have to draw attention to it. Lots of respectable media doesn't.

There is definitely an element of truth to the idea that someone could hide behind the idea of homage and scuttle away from their work in the way that you so laboriously pretend-documented, though. I agree that you can't take the substantial part of a film's story and get away with calling it homage.

I haven't found a good opportunity to watch the YouTube link you made because it would surely upset Veronica and I don't really want to watch it myself. But if it shows that Love Me rips it off wholesale, then yeah, that's pretty shitty of Mav to be so unoriginal as to rip off this part of the movie for a crucial technical part of the plot. I think it's questionable that he didn't respond to the thread with "Oh yeah, this idea was from X", when people responded with stuff like "oh man, that scene where the eyelids are ripped off!" That would seem like weak evidence that he was trying to hide his influences, and was not legitimately using the work of others as a homage. However, there is only so much outrage I can derive from this, and I think you went too far in getting worked up about it.

There is no worth in your "IF YOU TAKE OUT ELEMENTS A, B AND C, IT'S ALL SHIT!!" process. What are we trying to work out here? Not a mathematical equation. The question is, was it morally acceptable for Love Me to use these story elements that have been used in other things? And part of that question might be "are the 'stolen' elements the dominant part of the story's appeal?

I think the answer to that is no. I don't think people enjoyed the story because of the inventive, amazing ways the torture occurred. Its appeal was that there was torture. With the legal perspective that you were formerly so fond of prosecuting this from, that doesn't matter, if it's "75% stolen" then it owes 75% of its livelihood to the other movies, but we're not talking like lawyers here. As a moral question, to come to the conclusion "You are nothing", you are ignoring the fact that the appeal of the story was that the characters were undergoing SOME form of torture, and that it was written to be extremely upsetting. That's what has given the story some limited notoriety here, and launched the $40 SushiJaguar gravy train.

I would say the value Maverik invested in the story is that he spent time writing something extreme, in a framework that worked to shock most people (Sandy\Lucy crossover) and presented it in a finished form for people to read. I'd say the benefit he got from that investment of effort was fair and proportionate. Even if it was not, and it blew up and became the biggest story in the world, there is definite value to the fact he executed a story both adapted to the written format and to the BCB world. It's crazy if you don't see substantial value in that alone. and it's disingenuous to imply that somehow the specific methods of torture were in far greater proportion than any of the other elements that make the story compelling.

I am sure that you hold strong opinions about how the story can be improved, particularly with regard to the creative process. As always I have grammatical\flow issues with it and while it made me cringe I don't really remember it as fondly or as excitedly as most of the people here. But I think you are letting your annoyance that the story got more attention that it deserved mix with this shaky foundational belief that Maverik was being nefarious in brazenly stealing the ideas of movies he watched. It's at least the only explanation I can think of for the hyperactivity of your last post.

I've not been following this closely, I avoid the Love Me series for personal reasons. From my brief skimming over, I do think I have the gist of what is going on though.

Originality does not exist in modern day life, or if it does, it shies itself away, letting thousands pass over it, only a scarce few who sift through the dirt and grime picking it out, looking it over, and sharing it with the others. Every idea, every story, every movie, everything people create to entertain and enthrall has been a new version, a different version of something else. You can write as much as you want, but your ideas are influenced, knowingly or not but those of others whom you have come into contact with. Anyone can make connections between any piece of literature and another story of some kind, in some media. Avatar is Pocahontas, Eragon Series is Star Wars and Star Wars is a "tracing" of the oldest story, the Hero Journey. What I truly believe at this point is it's not exactly lack of originality that can make a writer but the delivery of their work.

With so little originality in the world today, how can anyone create something "amazing" for an audience? It is the delivery of the story, the presentation of the tale. I avoid this series greatly, it disturbs me in ways that shake me to my very core, and not for the torture as others may thing but different themes that can rise from it. The delivery of this story is strong, it leaves people thinking about it, dwelling on it for even days after finishing. Writers that can have their audience still trapped within the story even after it has finished, having them spread it to others, pulling more and more in, fewer and fewer escaping, those are the strong writers. To deliver something in this world that perhaps is not unique but can have the same effect as that which came before it, perhaps even greater effect, that is strong writing.

While I cannot stand his writing in this series for the effects it has on me, I cannot deny just how strong they were. He has left his mark on me, if I wanted to (and I never would) I couldn't forget Maverik or his work. When the author's name lives on through his work, that is a good writer. When the delivery of the same story told again is weak, then the writing is weak and the author forgotten.

In conclusion, expecting total originality is impossible. Even taking a base idea from something, working with it and melding it in an attempt to make it your own to the point it is unrecognizable, there will be something else out there that mirrors it in some way. The work of a writer is to deliver the story in a way that leaves their mark on the reader. You can have the most original idea ever, but with poor delivery none will ever know. With a flawless delivery, even the oldest stories known across the world can become something astounding, something that allows the creator to be remembered for a long time after their story is written and done for the effect it had on those who read it.